webgirl panel

[Evil]

As a female with little (actually no knowledge) of computers I hope that I can offer a unbasised opinon. I think to make a "female oreinted event" sucessful it would take 3 things...

1. A sucessful woman...(sucessful in anything but porn)
2. A woman with PROVEN hacker/computer skills...
3. A reliable woman! Someone who will face the questions, challanges, and sometimes taunts of the Def Con crowd with good humor and intellagance.

There are woman out there with these qaulifcations and you don't have to look very hard to find them. I met alot of them at Def Con last year. A speaker like this would weed out the droolers/scene whores and attract those truely interested in her brains.
However I do feel that something like this should be done as a series of talks/speeches rather than a "all girl panel". I agree with Octalpussy that an event like that would not be taken seriously (thanks to all the scenewhores) and it would draw attention to women in general and not those with specific skills. One woman speeches would focus the attention on the speaker and not her gender. I also feel that men should be allowed to attend. To leave them out would be sexist. And we, as women shouldn't particapte in behaviour that we accuse(and hate to see)men doing.

[ironfeather`]

I didn't want to give the wrong impression about the talk at interz0ne ... out of the 5 women on the panel only one was in the naughty webcam scene. Everyone else hosted their own sites with a non-sexual weblog kind of theme & had non-nude kinda cams.

The panel at rubi-con is the opposite tho. The three women confirmed are full time stay at home people that earn their living by maintaining their own amateur adult paysites. I notice the panel is not listed on the rubi-con.org site tho so perhaps they cancelled it. I'll find out.

I will be there & I'll report back here how the whole con goes. Anyone here going?

[octalpus]

Originally posted by ironfeather`
I didn't want to give the wrong impression about the talk at interz0ne ... out of the 5 women on the panel only one was in the naughty webcam scene. Everyone else hosted their own sites with a non-sexual weblog kind of theme & had non-nude kinda cams.

I noticed this in your follow up, and chose to follow up to the original issue instead. I'll address this now. I still think that by having a "camgirl" panel, you're going to get people leering and jeering. What people in the general population will pass up, geeks find incredibly sexy. Just from personal experience... well... let's just say, I've been shocked.

I found it a bit strange that you mentioned this as a follow up, rather than a main point. It did give me (and others, I'm sure) the wrong idea about these girls. I'm sure you realise that when most people hear "camgirl", they think of the girls that flaunt their stuff in front of a camera, post blogs, host chats, and have long lists of stuff that they want that people buy for them. Personally, I would have jumped at the chance to point out this group of intelligent girls gaining popularity off of their skills an intelligence. I'm trying not to come off as attacking in this paragraph... it's a bit hard for me, hehehe. I'm just wondering why you didn't mention it firstoff, instead of in a follow-up. Feel free to respond, or not. It's just an item of curiosity in the way I see things, as opposed to your perception.

And finally... are any of them profiting from their sites? Do they have a central site, or are they all independent sites? Any chance you could e-mail me off-forum to talk a bit more about this? Again.... feel free to respond, or not. I just remember you mentioning a personal link to these girls, so I figured you might have a little more info.

[Evil]

I believe that some people are getting confused. Are we all in agreement that the "web cam girl panel " is a bad idea? And do we agree that we would like to see some "female oreiented events" ? If so, I agree and I also want to reiterate that my feeling (and the main point of my post) is that any women particapating in such a talk should have all of the 3 things mentioned in my afore post. Women need to be seen in a better light. No more scenewhores.

[octalpus]

Sorry, I didn't want to sound like I wasn't changing my stance. I'm still against it. I just wanted to follow up on... well... his follow up. And actually, as I stated before, I'm against "female oriented events", as well. I'd rather see a panel of speakers that includes female representation, rather than exclusively singling out women. We have had some wonderful female speakers in the past without making a spectacle of their gender. By making a point to include more female professionals, and quiently recruiting more female participants "behind the scenes", I think we'll do more good than having specifically female events.

[ironfeather`]

yeppers, I should have stated that in the first post but i didn't, totally my mistake, apologies to everyone here and the ladies who spoke. i had my vision from attending in my head and didn't describe it properly.

I do have to say that I think anyone who post blogs is cool. I am reading Anais Nin's Diary, on vol 4 now, and hooked on the idea of online diaries. big ups to those who can be so open. I wish i had the guts to do that. wish lists are sooper tacky tho ;)

yes, they all had independent sites, most on servers they configed themselves, etc. For some reason URLs were not given out.

"...I just don't think talks involving women in the porn biz would be taken seriously..." That is probably correct at defcon since it is a "security" focus. But there are other conferences out there that are focused on "porn" related programming, security, banking, sales, etc. I have attended some in vegas, Michigan and Canada. It is a DIY mega money making business still below scrutiny so far.

Besides the smoozing and partys that happen at the adult cons, the typical panels & speeches are about techie issues like hi-powered servers, isps, scripts, security against password abuse, CC fraud, streaming video, bandwidth theft prevention, legal issues, getting traffic, etc as well as banking offshore, international commerce, fone dialers, VISA's latest crack downs, etc.

I have been interviewing a bunch of these folks for the next issue of our zine. Pattern so far is that most worked in computer related jobs, quit them to open their own adult online biz of some sort and now are doing better $ wise than their old jobs.

About women speakers @ defcon: I have seen a few at past defcons and they rocked as they were professional and well received by the listeners. But two that (I have heard this from other people) that didn't are Netta from Gray Areas(rip) and Carol M.? (happy hackers i think), I heard Netta was booed and heckled off the stage in tears.

not sure why i mention any of this, but rambling onwards as always.

cheers everyone!

[ironfeather`]

yes, we are all in agreement that the "web cam girl panel " is a bad idea... the idea is quit.

now i'll have to think of something else corny to suggest :D

[mfreeck]

Originally posted by octalpussy
Sorry, I didn't want to sound like I wasn't changing my stance. I'm still against it. I just wanted to follow up on... well... his follow up. And actually, as I stated before, I'm against "female oriented events"

While I agree that there should be solo female speakers, there has been a distinct lack of them in general. I think DC showing that they want to make an effort towards equalizing some of the inequity will help draw out some of the women who have previously been reluctant to speak. I am in favor of a female panel (who are skilled in something in particular) *because* it is highly visible. For every reaction, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Women (with brains) have been invisible at Defcon for awhile now. Now it is time for them to be visible. Don't make a huge deal out of it, just make it there.

[russ]

maybe...

The "Meet the coders" is cool.... but make it gender specific to women. Every year there are mostly guys talking and I'm sure there are some really smart chicks out there that could give a great talk. I'd love to hear about some specific projects, apps, code, hacks, etc that women are working on this year.

Just my 2 cents. I like boobs as much as any straight man, but Defcon is about being a geek and sharing knowledge. Let's not take a step backwards here.

But hey, I'd let Hanna organize something like this. Sounds like a decent idea, given the right constraints. :-)

[skroo]

Waste. Of. Time.

This is something that actually kinda pisses me off.

There're damn few women in this scene who are technically capable or competent. Part of the reason for this is that they see how all of the goddamn scenewhores hanging around behave, and want nothing to do with it. [Memo to the other guys: yeah, some of us encourage this behaviour, so it's at least partly our fault.]

Fuck these people (and yes, I do mean that figuratively). They contribute nothing, and exist solely to be some 'hacker's' girlfriend - until they get bored, and start screwing his friends.

So... What relevance to Defcon does a panel of camwhores have, and can we expect a How To Live Vicariously Through Livejournal talk as a follow-up?

[mfreeck]

Re: Waste. Of. Time.

Originally posted by skroo
This is something that actually kinda pisses me off.
[...]
So... What relevance to Defcon does a panel of camwhores have, and can we expect a How To Live Vicariously Through Livejournal talk as a follow-up?

The idea of a webcam panel has been thoroughly vetoed. Now ppl are discussing whether there should be a women's panel (on something that requires brains) , or just a concious but subtle effort to include women more.

[Chris]

Re: Re: Waste. Of. Time.

Originally posted by mfreeck
The idea of a webcam panel has been thoroughly vetoed. Now ppl are discussing whether there should be a women's panel (on something that requires brains) , or just a concious but subtle effort to include women more.

I think a women's panel isn't necessarily a good idea. If there are women out there that have something to contribute...submit a paper and speak. Jennifer Grannick is consistently one of the most popular speakers at DefCon. Women aren't intentionally excluded...they aren't trying to be included. If you have something to say submit and say it. Otherwise, why is it DefCon's responsibility to try to manufacture a forum for women to be represented in.

[Jetf0rce]

Originally posted by ironfeather`
heyza

In defense of the women that spoke, all the women at interz0ne were hackers or at least super geeked babes.

as for skills, they chatted about their *nix boxes, projects they were developing for work & fun, etc as well as weird requests, stalkers, etc. for an example check out Sherrod's personal page (who organized it):

http://www.girlvinyl.com/

anyways, so far its looking like overwhelming "no" which is fine with us, it was just an idea. :)

Tho I was not there this year to see the difference in attitudes, etc. I do have to agree with Noid that defcon would be better if people focused on the talks & learning rather than party & being silly. So I won't follow this idea any further for defcon.

Noid, shouts! It has always been awesome to see ya at defcon and we missed you and everyone last year but we will see you this year for sure! We have been snowed in Michigan but digging our way out and summering in Colorado 2003 thus closer to vegas land. We met V1ru5 at interz0ne and hope he passed on our greets to ya! Stay cool brother!

If they are into computers and do stuff like other people do at defcon then they would just be women that attended defcon that looked good. I would also like to say I think there is not that many women at defcon that have a single clue about whats going on. Although that is just my experience. Whell at any rate there should always be more women. ^__~

[octalpus]

Originally posted by Jetf0rce
I would also like to say I think there is not that many women at defcon that have a single clue about whats going on.

Excuse me?! Doesn't sound like you have a clue. Raven Alder's speech on DoS attacks across Cisco backbones received decent reviews. Jennifer Granick's various legal talks are packed every year. There were intelligent women participating in Hacker Jeopardy, in the Wardriving competition, and, if I'm not mistaken, I think I saw a few in the CTF competition as well. Perhaps if you were staring at our terminals instead of our breasts, you'd realise that there are quite a few women there that could code your ass under the table.

[octalpus]

Re: Re: Re: Waste. Of. Time.

Originally posted by Chris
I think a women's panel isn't necessarily a good idea. If there are women out there that have something to contribute...submit a paper and speak. Jennifer Grannick is consistently one of the most popular speakers at DefCon. Women aren't intentionally excluded...they aren't trying to be included. If you have something to say submit and say it. Otherwise, why is it DefCon's responsibility to try to manufacture a forum for women to be represented in.

That's exactly the way I feel. I don't like the idea of singling out women into a special panel. I'd much rather there be a more subtle move to involve women. Perhaps put out a call for papers to technical lists frequented by women, and encourage them to circulate the news amongst their peers.

A few of us in a women's Linux group had also discussed the possibility of a social gathering at Defcon, but didn't get it together. Perhaps we could make a better effort at pulling this together this year. Our goal was going to be a luncheon type event with an open forum discussion, perhaps with an informally led topic. This way, the event would be both a way to meet other women with similar interests, as well as to discuss those interests.

I think this is more productive than putting women on display, simply because they're women (yes, women who $foo, but again... they're being singled out first and foremost for their gender, and their accomplishments become secondary).