we are delivered :-)

[Deviant Ollam]

So, I'm on my I'm on my phone right now and therefore can't post a great deal easily, but suffice it to say the shoot is 100% a go.

We have a new location locked in and it is the Clark County Shooting Complex north of the city. It will be a lot warmer than we are used to, but the facility is lovely and everything that we want to do will be feasible. The only restriction appears to be 50 caliber.

I will give a lot more information when I get back to the Mandalay Bay in an hour or so.

[Quiet]

The Clark County Shooting Complex is a great venue.

AFAIK...
Explosive, incendiary and tracer ammo is prohibited.
Exploding targets are prohibited.
.50BMG is only allowed on the 200 yard range. (will be allowed on the 500 yard and 1200 yard ranges, when construction on those are finished)

[Chip512]

Reading their website it looks like a great location. Looking through their guide a few things stood out: "All public shooters must watch a safety video before shooting at the Clark County Shooting Complex for the first time" (might be an issue if they can't handle quite a few at a time for their video), "Human image targets are not for sale by the Clark County Shooting Complex and are not allowed for use at the Public Rifle/Pistol Range" (might be an issue depending on which targets people are bringing), "Unauthorized sale or bartering of goods/services, food and/or beverages is prohibited" (agree settle up for ammo and such elsewhere). I'm sure I've missed some points elsewhere in the document.

Rule book at http://www.clarkcountynv.gov/parks/D...andbook_RV.pdf , summary of range rules on pages 34-36.

[seeess]

"Human image targets are not for sale by the Clark County Shooting Complex and are not allowed for use at the Public Rifle/Pistol Range"

Anytime you see regulations relating to the "public range" they probably don't apply to us. Unless deviant did something different, we should be at the "education center" which they told me is operated independently. They did mention the 50 cal restriction on the 50 yard range, which I think we may be at, but let's wait for details from deviant.

Also, I think deviant just phished me out of the reservation I had booked yesterday for the group. They didn't even call me to confirm deviant was part of the same group.

[Deviant Ollam]

hah, ok. so i'm back at my hotel now.

seeess is right about the rules. we are going to be our own animal there. we have, effectively, a "private reservation" at their Education Center zone. 50 yd and 100 yd ranges for our use (the 50 yd one has plenty of space and will be all ours. the 100 yd one might have some people on it on wed and we'd just fit in as desired)

the "Education Center" facility is located here... 36.3511, -115.2110

I have confirmed the following...

* we can have our Title-II NFA gear out there, full auto, etc.
* we can have any paper targets we want (doesn't matter what's on them)
* we can shoot steel, fruit, messy stuff, etc. as long as (A) we're safe and (B) we clean it all up (personally, i draw the line at glass)
* we can have black powder items, including the cannon
* we didn't talk about reactive targets, but i have always banned them from the Shoot in the past (due to previous location) so this shouldn't be a huge loss
* we cannot shoot 50 BMG (possibly at all, or possibly just at the 50 yd backstop. it was unclear. i bet it's not at all)

What we are in for, logistically...

* we have rented their whole 50 yd spot with something like 20 lanes and lots of room
* we hire one of their RSOs to oversee our team and staff, that puts us under their insurance
* they have bathrooms and water on-site. lighting at night. power everywhere. very very nice!
* we are facing fees for this, but they're going to be manageable. (see more in upcoming post)

What is next...

I am going to update the official shoot page, put up new directions, blast out emails and tweets with news and links. please do your part by telling ANYONE you know that might be coming so they're aware of the change of venue. all other facts (like timing schedule, etc) remain the same.

Much more coming in a bit. Just gotta scramble to update our rental place, cancel other ranges where we asked for a hold, etc.

[darkwind]

Nicely done. While I always enjoy the primitive and isolated nature of the shoot, I'm sure it'll still be a blast (har)

FYI I just found your e-mail about the mail list buried in my spam filter, I'm sure others may have received it in the same location, as I use a popular free provider that starts with a G.

-darkwind

[L0g1c]

Crap, I guess I'll just be bring my rubber band gun.

[L0g1c]

Camping status? What's the drive time between the hotels & this new venue?

[Zorlac]

"Human image targets are not for sale by the Clark County Shooting Complex and are not allowed for use at the Public Rifle/Pistol Range" (might be an issue depending on which targets people are bringing),

Are Zombie targets classed as human targets? Because dammit I purchased 5 of them....

[Deviant Ollam]

whoa, had to scale down these images a lot to meet the forums size requirements, but this is even more detail.

if you look on Google Maps, you can see the spot where we'll be. at the northernmost part of the facility are two built and finished range sites. the one on the right (to the east) is the "educational facility" (the one on the left/west is the "public range" and that's not where we'll be)

there is plenty of parking. there is a large building there (the education hall, with classrooms, etc) but we will only have access to the front lobby of that building. it has bathrooms and a water fountain. (and air conditioning if anyone has heat stress)

the ranges (there is a 100 yd range in the middle, flanked by a 50 yd range to its right and an archery range to its left) have overhead roof structures and those typical "shooting tables" like these in each of something like 20 stations. i plan to augment those spaces with more tables and the like (from our usual rental place)


CAMPING UPDATE: in the large sandy zone seen in-between the shooting lanes and the parking area, we will be permitted to camp out. now, i will not be upset at all if anyone wants to back out of camping. it's going to be hot. well, at least warm. up in Lovell canyon when we camp folk almost freeze at night. it gets down into the 50s or even the 40s. here we won't be as high up (but we will have good breeze) so it usually only gets down to about 80 at night, i'm told.

i won't even be putting up my tent. i'm just inflating my air mattress and calling it good.

why still decide to camp at all then? well... the mountainside overlooks all of Las Vegas! we will have an amazing view down into the city from where we are and i look forward to seeing that, honestly. i plan to camp if i'm not totally fucking wiped out by the heat.

again... schedules should remain the same. i'm updating the location details on my site shortly, but the schedule of each day remains the same.

[Deviant Ollam]

Camping status? What's the drive time between the hotels & this new venue?

we are allowed to camp. well, we can bivouac. i honestly have NO idea who would want to be in a tent, anyway, out there. it will be in the mid 80s all night long, i expect.

the drive is not long. i made it in about 30 to 35 minutes each way today. Uber and taxis and such will get you there, if need be. see the new directions page on the DEF CON Shoot site for more exact details.

[Deviant Ollam]

so... this will be the Money Post

i haven't run all the numbers, but it looks like i'll be able to manage the changes to the Shoot this year without going totally broke. our major rental cost from the party supplier in the past was the tent canopies. they are not needed this year. so that's a big cost savings (over $1000, actually)

there are big new costs, however. two of them, principally:

1. the Clark County Shooting Complex has fees associated with use of the Education Range. the range itself, the RSO that we have from them (he oversees our RSOs and thus we are covered by their insurance), electric/lighting fee... all of this totals up around $400+

2. keeping cool will possibly be a big issue, so i am looking to pivot some more of our savings on the party rental into cool air misting fans. there is a water hookup out at the site and electric power. i plan to hopefully have at least one (maybe more) cooling mist fans out there near the lanes. i don't know how well this will work but i want to try.

... in the end, i will be as public as i feasibly can with receipts and change costs, etc. i want people to know how the costs shifted and where money went. i remain steadfast in my commitment to offer refund options (partial or whole) to anyone who asks. once it's all over, if you feel in ANY WAY that what you had previously paid for did not equate to what you experienced, please email me and we can talk about what funds can be reversed back to you.

the biggest people who have legit gripes here will be those who reserved shooting lanes. We will figure out the best way to approach this on site, but the chance is real that "official" lane renters (who paid extra) may see "unofficial" lanes pop up further down the firing line (and see those lanes occupied by folk who did not pay extra)

please, just email me when this is all over and we can talk about how i can make things right for you. i know that last minute changes suck and the last thing i want ANYONE to come away with is feelings of being taken advantage of.

[TheCotMan]

I've been out to the site where they have this. At the time, it was under construction. From memory, the difference in elevation from downtown LV to the old park-land site which is closed , was greater than the elevation difference at this site. At the site which is closed to shooting, the elevation was high enough that it was often ~10 degrees or more cooler than downtown Las Vegas. This new location will be hotter, on average, than the old location, especially at night.

According to google earth, the old location is ~5000 ft above sea level and the new location is ~2700 ft above sea level and downtown Las vegas is around 2000 feet above sea level.

~2300 vertical elevation difference will change things a bit.

HTH,
-Cot

[Deviant Ollam]

indeed. this spot will be hotter both daytime and nighttime. we'll just have to manage as best we can. (and possibly use those big mist fans)

[TheCotMan]

indeed. this spot will be hotter both daytime and nighttime. we'll just have to manage as best we can. (and possibly use those big mist fans)

Thanks for being so aggressive with finding alternate solutions and communicating details as they changed to the people involved.

From the web-page for the shooting park, It looks like the new site has firearm rentals available. That might create more opportunities for people arriving without firearms, if it works as the website suggests.

Thanks again for your hard work to keep this running,
-Cot
:-)