cs degree

[jounin]

I have had to conduct more interviews than I care to remember and when I'm looking to hire someone it really depends on the person and not the credentials (unless it's required for the job). Since I'm in local gov we have more rigid standards but just because someone has a degree or a cert it doesn't mean they're the one. Most of the time it's attitude, perceived aptitude, and experience that will get someone the job. Certs (ESPECIALLY M$) don't mean much to me. I have interviewed dozens of MCSEs and a high percentage of them can't apply what they've studied. I'd rather have a few people who "get it" than a group of people with a paper cert who stumble from one task to another and have to call me every 20 minutes. Having said all that, I would agree with urban, get a degree in what you like and do what you like. Just because you think "computers are cool" doesn't mean you are cut out for this line of work. Sorry about the book I just wrote..;)

[noid]

Now the question is, what percentage of management are idiots?

Do you really want an answer to that? :)


The problem I have found (having recently come off over a year of unemployment) when trying to get in the door isnt the idiot managers, its tech ignorant HR people. A tech manager writes the job requisition then hands it to the HR drone. The HR drone dosent know IT or anything tech related (InfoSec is particularly bad with them) so all they have to go on is the checklist they make off of the managers job requirements. So lets say the manager has a clue and was looking for someone with 5 or more years of network experience, his CCNA, and some experience with Firewall-1 (CCSE prefered). The hiring manger may be able to tell a good canidate who would fit the job but dosent have those certs, however the HR drone who calls people and takes resumes only sees '5+ years experince, CCNA, CCSE'. Now lets say your last job had you working as both a router admin and a Firewall-1 admin..you know this stuff inside and out, any hiring manager who talked to you for 5 minutes would know this, but your company was too tight to ever pay for you to get the certs. Well, you'll never get to the hiring manager. The HR drone will look at your resume, not see the required buzzwords, and pitch it. So in that sense, having a degree can be very helpful as its one more check the HR drone can put on his/her checklist when evaluating your resume. I think most certs are worthless, but frankly, get as many of them as you can for this same reason. If you have a degree, A+, CCSE, CCSA, GIAC, CISSP, MCSE, CCNA, CCNP, etc then you will fill up more checkboxes on the HR drones list.

Quick anecdote before this gets any larger. My neighbor is a hiring manager for ATT Wireless (unfortunately for me, not in IT). He needed to hire some new people, so he wrote up the job requisition and handed it to HR. Several weeks later he'd only been handed about 4 resumes. He asked HR what was going on and was told 'those are the only resumes that have come in that meet your requirements'. The HR folks were doing exactly what I discussed above. He told them 'just give me everything you get, dont filter anything'. Sure enough he gets several dozen resumes in the next few days and out of those resumes deemed 'unqualified' by HR, he found his canidates and hired them.

[Chris]

Originally posted by noid

Quick anecdote before this gets any larger. My neighbor is a hiring manager for ATT Wireless (unfortunately for me, not in IT). He needed to hire some new people, so he wrote up the job requisition and handed it to HR. Several weeks later he'd only been handed about 4 resumes. He asked HR what was going on and was told 'those are the only resumes that have come in that meet your requirements'. The HR folks were doing exactly what I discussed above. He told them 'just give me everything you get, dont filter anything'. Sure enough he gets several dozen resumes in the next few days and out of those resumes deemed 'unqualified' by HR, he found his canidates and hired them.

That is exactly what we do. We told HR to just send us everything they get. It takes us five minutes to look over a resume. We had the exact same issue...we'd tell them what we wanted and after a month they would have sent over one or two resumes.

[Soybomb]

Noid's right on with the HR people being a big filter if you don't have the exact specs they've asked for. I'd guess most people here don't really pick up a ton of great knowledge from their computer related college courses and have more knowledge from work experience or just messing around. In my experience I can walk in and pick up an entry level job pretty easy, but you're stuck there without a higher degree in something if its a medium to large company. The people with the degrees usually get promoted there first no matter how good your track record is. Given the slump of the economy, its a great time to get a little a more schooling in too.

Only take cs if you like coding and don't mind math.

[KidE]

I have to agree with Urban.

Most places that want degrees generally don't care what they are in. A 4 year degree shows employers a certain level of maturity and the ability to apply ones self. Plus there is an exposure to a broad range of ideas and such that some employers think is an asset.

2 semesters before I graduated with an aerospace engineering degree, I realized the job market sucked ass. I graduated and fell back onto something I enjoy, computers. Now my masochistic nature is taking me back to school to get a CS degree...and then on to grad school.

[[Syntax]]

CS Degree? Ive got more than half of my degree.. I need a few credits, however Ive seen very few places hiring on degree alone. Everyone wants experience in this or that.. most job possitions open are for some obscure position or knowledge that is either brand new, or extinct.

I asked a counselor once, why the hell the CS degree had Calculus 1 2 3, Trig, Analytical, ect.. compared to a mathematics major, you only had 2 classes less. The counselor bluntly responded.. "Everyone wants to be a computer tech, computers are the future, people know this, all that math is just a way for us to weed out the demand".

My weekpoint is math, and has always been, people are amazed at the things I can do with a computer. This simply pissed me off, that someone whos good at math and knows shit about computers is going to get a fucking piece of paper that says they are knowledgable about computers.

I on the other hand know more than most instructors, end up teaching the class, and cant get a degree, because the system wants to weed out people..

Another example of how the system fucks people over.
Any comments on this?

[murakami]

Originally posted by Syntax-Error
My weekpoint is math, and has always been, people are amazed at the things I can do with a computer. This simply pissed me off, that someone whos good at math and knows shit about computers is going to get a fucking piece of paper that says they are knowledgable about computers.

Another example of how the system fucks people over.
Any comments on this?

Yeah, stop whining and suck it up. It's just another hoop to jump, get a fucking tutor, study harder, its not an insurmountable problem.

Or, you could settle for working as a computer tech. Your choice.

An another thing, the world is not fair.

[[Syntax]]

The fact remains people who know less than others have degrees, and companies decide who to hire based on those degrees.

What determines what is a whine and a complaint?

[ch0l0man]

Originally posted by murakami
It's just another hoop to jump

i am not a circus animal!

i have seen phone support jobs that require a degree now, it may not be fair but like murakami said life isnt fair and no one ever said it was or had to be.
as much as i dont like them i may just end up getting one so that i can own my own home.
will i tell anyone that i have one no, will it be framed no, it will sit in an envelope collecting dust, but it will allow me to make a living at something i enjoy doing and that is all that matters to me.

[[Syntax]]

The debate isnt getting the degree, I can change majors from CS to Information Systems and have a degree without taking but 1 mathematics class. The point is, computer science degrees cover a wide range of job positions, most of which do not require rocket scientists.

[murakami]

Originally posted by Syntax-Error
The fact remains people who know less than others have degrees, and companies decide who to hire based on those degrees.

That is irrelevant. If you can't or are not willing to jump the hoops, then would you be willing to do the boring and tedious shit that is the bulk of IT? In addition, just because you know how do something does not make you best candidate for the job. There are many factors that make a good employee, such as self motivation, responsibility, and attitude.

Generally, what degree you get doesn't matter. So long as you can show that you are qualified either through experiece or through certifications.

What determines what is a whine and a complaint?

I do. All things being equal, I do not hire christians, white, or males, in that order. One candidate that I reviewed kept mentioning that he was reborn and kept praising god for his incredible computer skills through out the whole interview. I couldn't get him for being a christian, but I panned him for his flatulence and cheap suit because there was a section for reviewing appearance and deportment.

Life is like that, you will run into many petty and capricious assholes such as myself. There is no difference between whining and complaining. Buck up.

[nocho]

A CS degree will do you plenty of good... if you're willing to relocate to India and work for less than minimum wage.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/biztech...s.offshore.ap/

The recession is supposedly over, but the jobs ain't coming back.

[Gadsden]

I was lucky enough to land a good job (at least for the area) without a degree, as was most of my friends. Truly some of the sharpest folks that I know have not set foot in a college classroom, or dropped out soonafter from boredom. I DID, however, realize there is a "glass ceiling" that you will hit in MANY places without the degree, as a friend (whom is a true genius) and I have found out. Many places will not let you in the door unless you have a degree.
The result: I went back to school after dropping out for 5 years, and have been offered a promotion when I complete the degree. Does that make me any smarter in my field or better than the next guy? Not at all. Maybe less sharp in many areas because I have not had the time to actually sit down and hack and learn hands on. It DOES, however, show a potential employer that I can stick to something until the finish (although I should have a PhD. by now.. ). I personally think college is a good thing no matter how you slice it, as long as you don't let it get in the way of your education.

[nocho]

Originally posted by che
Many places will not let you in the door unless you have a degree.

Many places won't let you in the door even with a degree. I don't think there's a glass-ceiling in convenience store jobs though, thats where I see alot of grads working these days. They can look forward to being supervisors or managers if they stick with it long enough, I suppose. Until convenience store clerks are completely replaced by the likes of these:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1104/p16s01-wmcn.html

The result: I went back to school after dropping out for 5 years, and have been offered a promotion when I complete the degree. Does that make me any smarter in my field or better than the next guy? Not at all. Maybe less sharp in many areas because I have not had the time to actually sit down and hack and learn hands on. It DOES, however, show a potential employer that I can stick to something until the finish (although I should have a PhD. by now.. ). I personally think college is a good thing no matter how you slice it, as long as you don't let it get in the way of your education.

A buddy said to me: "Chose 4 more years of school and what do I have to show for it? $20,000 in debt... and a shit job to pay it back. Just hope they don't re-institute debtors prisons... "

Neuromancer, baby. High-tech, low-life "Cyberpunk" society. Thats where we're headed. Hack the Gibson.