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**nocho** · August 5, 2003, 10:43

Yep. No doubt about it, the Alexis' capacity (insofar as the speaking rooms go) was way over-taxed. It soon became very apparent which forums were going to be busy, so you quickly learned to bolt the preceding one way early and miss out to get in line 30+ minutes ahead of time for the ones you absolutely couldn't miss, since you knew they were going to clear the room for the next. I heard plenty of complaints by others waiting in line thrown about that it was all a planned conspiracy to make you buy the audio CDs on top of paying for the con. There was supposedly a rumor by one of the goons that there would be a discount on the audio, but upon pre-ordering them from the TSOK booth on Sunday, no such deal was apparent.

The point was made: "Well, they sure had enough badges printed up if they didn't expect this many people." So yeah, I think the Fire Marshal news came as a bit of surprise. I wouldn't put all the blame on DefCon though, it sounds like the Fire Marshal had a beef with the Alexis mgmt. for not taking down the tent on the roof last year, and decided to make an example out of Defcon this year, since its supposedly Alexis' biggest money-maker. The idea is that Defcon would be pissed at Alexis and take their business elsewhere. Regardless, I don't think its going to be possible (without REALLY hurting the quality of the Con) to hold it there again next year anyway, if you assume the same percentage increase in attendees.

Without knowing the particulars of the financial planning behind the Con, I do find it a bit curious that you mentioned "the theory is you get it for free because it books so many rooms" -- is it true that it costs DefCon nothing to actually house the event on Alexis premesis (conference rooms and what not), since it brings so many customers to the Alexis paying to stay in their rooms? On Sunday, just before the UPS presentation in the tent, Priest was trying to console us, saying that Dark Tangent loses money every year on Defcon, that he does it "for the community."

Not to question the almighty powers, but $75 x 6000 attendees (figure I heard) = $450,000. I'm sure the tent costs some money for effectively trying to air-condition the outside 24/7... but if it costs nothing for the actual con space in the hotel, and presumably the vendors are paying money as well for the privilege of being able to sell in the vending area, where is the rest of the money going? I know, I'm being cynical... but it sure would seem like the least they could have done is have small bottled waters passed out to the crowds waiting in line in that scorching heat, as the goons had kept saying would be done. Its almost as if the goons were practicing psychological warfare and crowd control in trying to placate everyone so that we would all settle down just long enough until the con was over.

Still, overall the con wasn't too bad -- did learn more than I thought I would down there, mainly from a few of the really outstanding speakers, and I'd certainly hate to see DefCon fold and all that be left is the option of shelling out $1300 for two days of Blackhat. Obviously you aren't going to have the caliber of talks that you get at Blackhat, since the speakers are all volunteer at DefCon.

But something definitely needs to change next year. Perhaps use some of that $400K+ war-chest to book a bigger hotel next year? Any takers for the LUXOR? ;)

**kallahar** · August 5, 2003, 11:05

I had a great time. Sure, you might not get to see every talk you want to, but if you want to go to a professional con then pay the > $1600 to go to Blackhat. Maybe they should say that that meager $75 you paid to get in is actually only good for seeing a minimum of one talk.

They made the comment that at AP, Defcon controls everything. I'm pretty sure that Luxor or Caesars wouldn't let us just take over the place and do what we want with it.

Maybe pairing up with the Tropez would get enough immediate space to have larger speaking areas?

**nocho** · August 5, 2003, 11:48

Originally posted by kallahar
They made the comment that at AP, Defcon controls everything.

Well, it sure looked like they almost lost control of the crowd... priceless moment in the Apollo on Friday, when they were trying to kick out all the people who were lining along the walls, someone yelled: "There are only three of them [goons] -- we can take them!!" :D

There were a couple points where I seriously thought it was going to devolve into a riot. Kudos to the goons for keeping order, but I don't think the same tactics are going to fly next year with even bigger crowds. Some of the goons were looking pretty demoralized by Sunday afternoon.

I'm pretty sure that Luxor or Caesars wouldn't let us just take over the place and do what we want with it.

But really, what all was done with the Alexis that couldn't be done elsewhere? Besides the suds in the fountains and the broken ground-light fixtures and other minor vandalism, its not like the attendees trashed the place.

Maybe pairing up with the Tropez would get enough immediate space to have larger speaking areas?

I think part of the problem is that the conference rooms themselves are too small (esp. now with the Fire Marshal breathing down Alexis' ass and being a stickler on maximum room occupancy) with everyone trying to crowd into one particular room for the exceptional speakers, which wouldn't be solved by more conference rooms, only bigger conference rooms. More repeaters would have helped though -- they were showing some of the speeches in the bar on Friday, but I noticed on Sunday they had them off, possibly because the crowds loitering around were hurting bar business? There was talk of setting up a projector in the Athena room to repeat the more popular talks, but it didn't appear to be operational as of Saturday afternoon. Things did seem to be a bit better on Sunday, probably because most of those who had rooms on-site just decided to stay in their rooms and watch the speeches on their televisions there. Or maybe more people were just too drunk after partying too hard Saturday night to bother getting-up until late afternoon. ;)

I'm not trying to overly-complain or come across as an ingrateful whiner -- believe me, I really did have a good time too. I'm just trying to help wave the big red warning flag that the status quo isn't going to hold, and could well turn into a disaster next year if little changes but far more people come anyway.

**kallahar** · August 5, 2003, 12:10

Yeah, Athena had a lot of problems getting a good feed, and the bar was way too small.

Maybe the best answer is to limit the number of attendees? Presell badges online - first come first serve. The dedicated people are already planning for next year, you'd get less people going on impulse which are probably the same people who cause problems. The downside is that there would be a lot more people stealing badges, hawking them, and trying to sneak in, but it would cut down on the sheer number (probably).

I'm sure the goons have a lot of ideas to think over :)

**nous** · August 5, 2003, 13:07

Re: Post con thoughts, what was your impression?

Originally posted by telemonster
I believe DT has a multi year agreement to use Alexis Park.... <snip> Fingers were pointed at the firemarshals, but really the fault lies in the hands of the con planners. Give up the Alexis park.[/i]

Name one other non-casino hotel with convention space in Vegas that is large enough but small enough to hold Defcon, keeping in mind they must allow us access to their cable and broadband systems, not mind property damage or multiple incidents requiring EMT or Security personnel, will close the hotel to anyone not attending the con (in order to avoid problems like the brawl that took place after DC9), will allow loud music coming from multiple rooms and the pool area every night into morning, will set up drink and snack bars and keep them open all night, and will do it all with a fucking smile on their faces.

And not everyone is booked at the Alexis Park.

Waahhhh!

Next up - the goons. I don't mean to diss anyone, but there is one tall guy who loves to talk on the microphone... <snip> He obviously is in love with the intelligence community, but is an outsider if he shows up at Defcon to play rent-a-cop and try to show that he has read a few books like "Inside the CIA."... <snip> It was an emergency announcement that if you steal hotel fixtures you would be kicked out. Evidentially a few kids stole a soap dish and they were mad. Obviously, everyone in the crowd would have no intentions of stealing a soap dish...

It is Priest's job to make those accouncements and everyone who knows him (and what his connection to the intelligence community might be or may have been) knows that he's looking out for our asses. The Goons have saved many a drunken fuck from going to jail or otherwise saved them from themselves for a fucking decade. People steal more than soap dishes at Defcon every fucking year. Goons protect us from the outside authorities and ourselves and ought to be given some appreciation instead of all the crap whining bitches like you throw at them year after year.

It was one of those more pathedic moments.

I cannot currently think of anything Defcon related more pathetic than this post. Go suck a rock.

Fast forward to this year, the goons were worse than fucking high school hall monitors. One of these Jeff Moss ass kissers whined to me that I need to wear my badge around my neck. Your fucking worse than the establishment you pretend to hate.

You were given notice when you bought your badge that it must be visable at all times. There is a reason for this policy. Quit whining.

Other than that, I had a good time hanging out with friends, but they too agreed that the price charged is a bit high considering the poor planning.

Shit, I think the price should be higher. It might keep the tourists and scene whores and posers and all those who just want to bitch away.

**simple3** · August 5, 2003, 13:11

GO THE FUCK AWAY.

if you don't like defcon don't attend. I would like to thank all the goons who worked their fucking asses off at the con. all the attendees that were patient with the problems we had. I was able to see all the talks I wanted to see. I had a lot of fun, met a lot of great people, met up with people I knew before, etc...

defcon is different every year, especially after dc9. I think it is better every year. and this is the best defcon i have been to, out of dc9, 10, and 11.

DEAL WITH IT. why don't you go pay 1000-2000 to go to black hat or some other comercial con if you don't like the defcon experience. if you don't come back next year i'll give you fucking $75 to be on your way. we don't need whiny bitches like you at the con.

--simple3

**jesse** · August 5, 2003, 13:55

I'd rather deal with the Defcon Goons any day of the week than deal with real hotel security or the LVPD. Anyone who says the Goons did a bad job this year is full of shit.

**Kry0NiK** · August 5, 2003, 14:52

Hey Fucktard, er telefucker....

I am one of those high school hall monitors you bitched about. I could retort every one of your assertions on why goons and or con sucked, but everyone else knows you dont have enough rocks inside your head to comprehend. Do everyone a favor and stay the fuck away from con. One less brainless asshole makes everyones con that much better.

If you are stupid enough to honor us with a return visit, make sure and introduce yourself to all the goons. They read these forums too, and will be happy to accomodate your "special needs".

**ch0l0man** · August 5, 2003, 14:53

for $75 it was well worth it, it sure is better then the $1000+ other cons charge.
so what if you had to sit on the floor to watch someone speak are you wearing $3000 armani pants? if not dont worry about it.
god people think cause they pay some kind of money they should get the royal treatment, thats like going to burger king and expecting to get full service.
there were a few speakers i missed but no big deal i can either buy them or watch them from the defcon site.
as for the goons passing out water to those in line, i say either stop and buy some water or get a cup before standing in line.
damn some people are so fuckin prissy.
besides only sat and sun were hot friday it was cool and it even rained a bit.
dont worry about where the 400k went its not your money.

**signine** · August 5, 2003, 14:54

Re: Post con thoughts, what was your impression?

Originally posted by telemonster
Fast forward to this year, the goons were worse than fucking high school hall monitors. One of these Jeff Moss ass kissers whined to me that I need to wear my badge around my neck. Your fucking worse than the establishment you pretend to hate. Last Vegas wind blows those fucking things around. Give these fucking kids just a little bit of power and it goes straight to their head. Kids, a hint. Your getting screwed. It isn't going to help your status anywhere, and you really don't have much power.

Well skippy, here's the thing, many of the "high school monitors" you saw this year (of which I was one) were volunteers. We didn't work out in the hot sun and end up with, as in my case, mild heat stroke and an inability to enjoy ourselves at the biggest party of the year because it made us feel high and mighty. We did it because, well, some of us would like to contribute to something we've enjoyed for years.

I personally thought the con went quite well, there were no truly major disturbances, no helicopters, the only complaint I had is that it's in Las Vegas.

**octalpus** · August 5, 2003, 14:57

First off, fuck you whiners up your asses. There were a lot of suprises sprung in the day or so before con started, and everyone did ONE HELL OF A JOB dealing with them.

Last year, everyone griped about the raise in badge costs, and this was addressed in numerous places. To those that think this thing is free to run, fuck you all. After a convention causes a location to have to remodel FOUR FLOORS of their establishment, a bad reputation tends to evolve, and problems arise. Problems such as having to take out a massive insurance policy, and not being allowed to hold it at choice locations.

The goons worked their asses off, and all problems were dealt with quickly and quietly. THAT is why you didn't have major problems interrupting your drinking. So quit your bitching, and make note to buy them all a drink next year.

DT is fully aware of the problems at the AP. If you were at closing ceremonies, however, he explained exactly why he is keeping the con there. It would take us YEARS to get to where we are with the AP at another location, not to mention the difficulties we would have trying to find someone to take us.

After 9, which was so disasterous it almost spelled the end of Defcon, DT wrote an open letter to the community, asking for suggestions. Many suggestions were implemented, and because of that there was a DC11. The successes this year and last were a result of many major changes, and the hiccups were mostly due to unforseen circumstances. Next year, things will continue to improve, as everyone learns something each year. If you have suggestions, send them to DT. If you just want to bitch and whine, go the fuck away.

**ch0l0man** · August 5, 2003, 15:11

Re: Post con thoughts, what was your impression?

Originally posted by telemonster
Fast forward to this year, the goons were worse than fucking high school hall monitors. One of these Jeff Moss ass kissers whined to me that I need to wear my badge around my neck. Your fucking worse than the establishment you pretend to hate. Last Vegas wind blows those fucking things around. Give these fucking kids just a little bit of power and it goes straight to their head. Kids, a hint. Your getting screwed. It isn't going to help your status anywhere, and you really don't have much power. I overheard some goon speak as we were working to own the defcon... errr I overheard some goons speaking and it seemed like there was tension with the goons versus defcon. It was mildly funny. But not as funny as next year when we have the gear with us to own.... err.

two things here,
1. wear your badge you are an adult, so you should have to only be told once. as for the wind blowing it every where just tuck it in your shirt. i wore mines every day and the wind didnt blow minds around, maybe it was all the hot air coming out of your mouth.

2. so you had gear to own the con but you couldnt own it with that gear, what makes you think will be able to do it next year with new gear?
as for owning the con next year that sounds very high schoolish.

**telemonster** · August 5, 2003, 15:18

Originally posted by Kry0NiK
Hey Fucktard, er telefucker....

I am one of those high school hall monitors you bitched about. I could retort every one of your assertions on why goons and or con sucked, but everyone else knows you dont have enough rocks inside your head to comprehend. Do everyone a favor and stay the fuck away from con. One less brainless asshole makes everyones con that much better.

Yawn, guess I should have known what to expect.

If you are stupid enough to honor us with a return visit, make sure and introduce yourself to all the goons. They read these forums too, and will be happy to accomodate your "special needs".

Yea what are you going to do? Throw me out? Nice, the little dick suckers are threatning the patrons.

**telemonster** · August 5, 2003, 15:34

DT is fully aware of the problems at the AP. If you were at closing ceremonies, however, he explained exactly why he is keeping the con there. It would take us YEARS to get to where we are with the AP at another location, not to mention the difficulties we would have trying to find someone to take us.

Yea I was there, but I don't understand why it would take years to get where they are. And if they had a venue that could support the event they wouldn't have to bother renting a 100kw trailer mounted genset and skid mounted air conditioning units. No tent either (the tent was definitly cool this year -- by brute force, nice Camlock connectors on those AC units too!). What exactly is all the preperation? Renting PA and AV gear, putting up the screens. Let me guess, they have some cat5 runs thru the walls? The whole thing with the hotel video plant is nothing, just drop one of the modulators and throw up your own Blonder Tounge or Sci Atl modulator on the same channel.

After 9, which was so disasterous it almost spelled the end of Defcon, DT wrote an open letter to the community, asking for suggestions. Many suggestions were implemented, and because of that there was a DC11. The successes this year and last were a result of many major changes, and the hiccups were mostly due to unforseen circumstances. Next year, things will continue to improve, as everyone learns something each year. If you have suggestions, send them to DT. If you just want to bitch and whine, go the fuck away.

What changes? Shit looked the same as Defcon 9, with the exception of root-fu taking over the ctf event and some of the other things which were soley done by volunteers.

I read the open letter to the community. I made suggestions.

My post was to get the vibe of other peoples experience. Instead I get a bunch of flames about attend blackhat (no). I wasn't out to insult the goons except that one guy who interrupted Bruce at DefCon 9 because that shit was lame. But obviously, it is nothing but the goons that read this thing.

Any other, non "employees" ?

As far as the badge, it was visible, riding right next to my cock. So suck it. Visible at all times, yoh.

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