Women of Defcon

[MrChainsawbeer]

we obviously didnt go in expecting our dvd not to be pirated, we're a little more familiar with the group than that. However, just like a band who produces good music, we can rely on the people who enjoy what we do to compensate us for doing so.

[pezz]

So let me tag along onto this thread. I think perhaps my thoughts would be better structured as numbered ideas rather than a long rant.

1. Pezz is not nekkid material, thus she kept her clothes on and was in modest attire for most of the con.
2. Yelling “Hey look at that ass or God d**n I’d fu*k her” is funny for the first few times. It gets old and offensive after 3 days.
3. General overview of the nekkid chicks at con is to me offensive and distracting, this holds true for nekkid males. Though this was my first experience I am seriously considering not going back.
4. I seriously considered sucker punching some dude who told me I couldn’t have free booze without showing my tits. It still perplexes me why he wanted to see them. (refer to thought 1)
5. A lot of guys at con were very polite and could actually keep up with and sometimes exceed the conversation when discussing things of a technical nature.
6. I’ll admit I was interested in seeing a real hooker, but they blended in after the first few hours.
7. Don’t ask what I would do with a 12inch dildo, as a female, what would you do with one? Why must men ask questions that are so obvious?

In addition I do have a few suggestions / questions:

1. Could we have a special hooker / slut area where all the guys who enjoy looking could go? That way everyone one could be happy?
2. Can we not sell porno?
3. Is there really a need for nekkid chicks at hacker jeopardy?

Might I also add that everyone from the forums I had conversations with were not offensive in any way. With 2 exceptions…

[{x}taSy]

I would like to thank everyone who contributed to this thread. With your help I will probably get an A.

I'm with pezz, actually. I did get harassed more this year than any of the other years I have attended. And I was NOT asking for it. I was wearing jeans and t-shirts. (yes I WAS wearing pants, thank you). However, these stares and comments generally came from the guys there to party for 3 days.

Also, did anyone notice the tampon string from the 1st chick w/ the blonde wig on the soft core porn dvd?

Also, was Vinyl Vanna a man or a woman?

[kallahar]

Like any other event with 5000 people, you're going to get all different types. There are some people that are there for all the right reasons, and some that were there for all the wrong reasons. Personally, I didn't feel overwhelmed by scenewhores, and there were really only a handful of scantily clad girls and they hung out a lot near the jesus phreakers booth.

Funny, when someone got me to show my tits I didn't get a free beer, but I got put up on Driftnet :)

[rrrrrrr]

We were all in it together, remember?

I don’t think anything I experienced at the con would be labeled as harassment. As someone who can physically and verbally defend myself (hell, as someone who frequently looks for a fight), my threshold for it may be different than someone who wants an asexual, non-confrontational environment.

A lot like college, the con has thousands of intelligent, drunk, mixed-sex twenty-somethings in close proximity. For that reason, it’s not fair to assess women’s position in society (or even the tech community) based on what happened at a weekend that more closely represents Mardi Gras than a true industry conference.

Actually, I wonder what happened to women at Black Hat. That might be a much better indicator of how women in information security are treated day-to-day.

As an equally important aspect of women’s experience, I’d like to mention briefly my experiences with other women (as opposed to men). I met some of the most fiercely righteous women I have ever had the pleasure to hang out with.

They were smart, funny, interesting, and independent. And they could drink me under the table! Refreshing, original, devious, and technologically ass-kicking, there were at least 15 women at this show who deserve superstar designation (even if some of them were Feds).

There were also, sadly, some women who need therapy. There were probably lots of guys who needed therapy there, too, but when you’re in the minority, the actions of a small number unfortunately carry greater weight for the rest of the group.

I won’t say anything else about the “haxor” girls, other than to say I hope they were keeping every dime they made. Maybe they’re laughing all the way to the bank. Or using the cash to open their own bakeries, drug treatment centers, teen dance clubs, or whatever.

It’s a shame that their capitalism interfered with some of our feminism, but as fellow women, we should give them the benefit of the doubt and assume their talents lie elsewhere. It advances feminism more for us to get to know each other than it does for us to get pissed off at each other. Especially when it was perhaps our own cruel behavior in junior high that drove these supposed “scene whores” to such depths of self-loathing.

At the end of Hacker Jeopardy, I turned around and asked “Vanna Vinyl” if she was a hacker. She said, “No. I’m a psychotherapist.” I found that totally, completely, absolutely fascinating. Mainly because it indicated that she is an independent, free-spirited woman making an informed decision about how and when she would express her sexuality.

Obviously it sucks that the behavior of women who like to express themselves as sex kittens becomes an “expectation” of adolescent men. But it’s equally limiting to tell a woman to desexualize herself when she wants to get randy as it is to tell a woman to show off her tits when she wants to talk about anomaly-based IDS.

The problem is not men, and it’s not women. The problem is immaturity. And maybe—like Defcon—we’ll all eventually grow out of it.

[Faierie]

To each their own

What interesting replies! I can't say I totally agree with most of it. For one thing - what's wrong with showing your tits if that's what you want to do? I can show my tits and still be a geek gurl. Because I did, and I am. I was there for the info, but I found much of the atmosphere to be a lot of fun. I can't say I appreciated all the haxx0r chicks, but then I just didn't find them attractive. Had they been...then well...more power to 'em! Vanna was ok, though - especially at a distance with beer-goggles on. :)

Who are we to judge the morals and values of another? Worry about your own shit first, and if you don't like something then go away or shut your eyes. If not, you probably belong more at a mainstream religion con then a hacker con.

Btw, I was for the most part very well respected by the guys there. Many saw me with my boyfriend and asked if I was a hacker, too. Dunno - could be that I had my own Laptop running Redhat maybe???

Fae

[omin0us]

I couldn't stand the haXXXor girlz. I was talking to one of them named "0 day Girl" and she didn't even know what her name ment.

Well, funny story. I had a friend who got a copy of their DVD and ripped it and burned it as a VCD, then took the burned copy up to the haXXXor girlz, and asked them to sign it. HAHAHA. they freaked out and broke the CD and punched him. But what could they expect, 1. their CD was lame. 2. it was $40 bucks, WAY overpriced. 3. Its defcon, of course someone is gonna pirate that shit. :)

omin0us

[mage2]

Women of Defcon

This was my 4th defcon. I think that women coming to the con is a great thing. yes the males out number the ladys but that as far as i have seen how its goes.. there were more ladys this year and most of the women i had the chance to talk to were very smart. They really impressed me. Personaly i could lose the group of "i came to get drunk and take up space" and not miss them.. yes the partys are great. jackalope's spinning was kickass as usual. and i got a chance to meet her afterwards. she is a very inteligent woman . I also had the chance to hang out with another lady, she isnt exactly a computer geek. She was a self proclaimed chemistry geek, well i have read some of her papers now..they go WAY over my head. i am really glad to see that most of the ladys i saw at the con were the fun loving geeks. adept at having fun and you can talk to them.. not haveing to drop your vocabulary. All in all i think that the ladys of defcon are a very important part of it. they have different views and ways of thinking.. and they all add to the defcon experiance. as for the few that are there just to look cool. well i dont let them change my views on others. there are too many nice ladys that know more than me. i come to learn and to have fun. thanks to everyone there i had a great time and came out with many new friends and alot more info. The group that come to drink and take up space are for the most part the ones that treat the ladys like objects. some girls do ask for it. but for those that dont i really wanted to hand them a bat, foam or otherwise so they could get the drooling guys off them. but all in all i think that i agree that the biggest problem is that some are very imature, i hope they grop up. well its late and my spelling sucks when im awake. and i rambled some. but thats my feelings on the subject

[selenakyle]

retrospective?

well, i've been going to the con for quite a few years now, and usually i go on my own. i get mildly harassed every year -- or aggressively hit-on, it could be considered either.

i never expected it to be any other way...after all, i went to a school with a 4:1 guy-to-girl ratio, work in tech, and am an infosec geek. i'm pretty ok with the extra...or maybe i should say different...attention. every once in a while the type of attention i get makes me uncomfortable, but maybe its because its coming from a 15 year old? whatever. also, i find that if a conversation gets started beyond the initial leering, we can get beyond the testosterone once we start talking about...hey, just about anything besides my tits.

recently i started hanging out with a cool group of people that includes a few other formidable chicks and that makes a difference. predators prefer to be prowling over being prey. :-)

[encrypt31945]

I noticed that most of the women at defcon were really smart except the scene whores that were flashing the vendors for free stuff.

[CCC]

Long Freaking Post

First, {x}tasy, I don't think you need to feel apologetic about your inquiry. Asking provocative (heh) questions like this (rather than "Where are the pictures of tits?") doesn't make you a "feminazi." I <i>do</i> think about issues like this in my spare time. I think it's a valid question and I think the forums are better off because you asked and people answered thoughtfully.

How was I treated? I probably would have a better answer to this question if I didn't stay in my room and watch the talks on the television instead of standing in lines and waiting to get into the rooms. Too freaking hot out there. But that's another thread ("Damn, how hot IS Vegas anyway?!"). I joked that it was hard work being one of the few Asian chicks there, but honestly, no one was rude to me. I think I was treated well. This may be because I went with friends and made it a point to walk places with at least one of them rather than walking alone. I don't generally require an escort when I go anywhere, but I felt like I should have one at defcon so as to not mislead guys and think I'm out for a date. Maybe it's sad that I had to do that? What does that say about what I thought Defcon would be like?

Most come-ons are clumsy and made in vain, whether or not they're made at Defcon. Guys who take the time to be nice, articulate, and respectful are generally more successful. (Hint hint!) But that's just me. When I got dolled up for the Black and White Ball, I got more attention, but that's because a black latex corset with white stars and a hobble skirt is

bound to attract attention; latex is shiny and people, much like raccoons, like shiny objects. ("What's tha- ooh! Shiny!") Anyway, I knew I was going to get more attention for what I was wearing but the attention I did get in that get-up was respectful and nice, not pushy or rude.

No one questioned my presence the whole time I was there. I openly admit I am schooled in the humanities, so I think I might even have profited more from the talks than some haxx0rs because I knew less, and isn't it important to learn?

These days, we ostensibly interact on the assumption that men and women are equal. Some people are so complacent with this that they lapse into sexist platitudes with the idea that if you don't get it, you're just a stick in the mud. You know. Get with it. We know we're equal. Now show me your tits. What? It was just a joke! What a prude. Just because we've gone through women's lib and we know we're all equal doesn't mean you can revert back to being an asshole and just say you were joking or say I have no sense of humor.

While I understand some women think that other women at defcon make take the cause back a few steps because flashing titty reinforces the idea that women are only good for eye candy and they can't program. I think many of women our age find ourselves in the interstices of second and third wave feminisms. How can we be taken seriously but still assert that we're women? Does one have to negate one's sexuality in order to succeed in a field? What about guys in this culture? Would you say they're undersexualized, desexualized, or hypersexualized? "Will hack for sex" and "I want to meet a girl whose name doesn't end in .jpg" are two shirts that might convey the message that geeks are men and, as such, they are sexual creatures. They certainly don't have to check their gender at the door when they enter this society, so why should women?

Just many males go to Defcon to have fun, some females go knowing they'll get attention. Imagine being some guy who was made fun of in high school for being a nerd ("Stop laughing, computers are cool now") and then he grows up and, lucky him, brains are what really work this world, not brawn. But maybe part of him still wants to be that cool jock who went to parties and got drunk and was an asshole and was rude to the chicks but got them anyway. Maybe that's why we get guys who go to Defcon to party. Are they scenewhores too or are just they out to hang out with their kind and indulge in a bit of partying behavior they wouldn't get into normally? (See geek vs. nerd thread for abject fear of being perceived as being smart but hopelessly unhip.)

I saw women there who definitely enjoyed being female at the con. Can you blame a girl, or anyone of any gender, for enjoying attention? Maybe these women who took off their tops or were "slutty" were similarly indulging in a bit of roleplay. Maybe this is their chance, for one weekend, to be exhibitionists and revel in their sexuality because, hell, if you're going to do that, you should definitely do it where the ratio is in your favor. How are they different from the guys I described above? We can't tut tut tut a guy for the same thing because guys just don't have those secondary sexual characteristics that, in this society, are covered or revealed with certain consequences. When a guy fucks a lot of women, he's a stud, but when a women does the same she's a slut? I know that's trite, but does that still hold these days?

Defcon allows people to strut their stuff, be a little cooler, be a little wilder, be a little flashier than who we normally are, whether displaying mad haxx0r skillz, wearing the hippest clothes or the black shirt with the sharpest quip, dying hair the brightest color, or showing off a fabuloso computer or showing off one's body. You only have 3 days to make an impression, so you'd better make a good one. But maybe you're actually there to go to the talks and learn from them. Yes, but the majority of the attendees are in their twenties and, frankly, that's when both genders of the species are trying to look their best and trying to mate. Biology isn't destiny, but the demographics should be taken into account. Even if they're not there to date, attracting a mate might always be in the back of the mind.

A lot of this, of course, is hinged on heterosexual assumptions.

Dare we question the homophobia in these forums, at the con, and in this culture? Is it because the computer world is so homosocial that one must strongly disavow male-male sexuality? Is this why the t-shirts and bumper stickers are so blatantly (hetero)sexual? Is the homophobia jere just because this is a relatively youthful culture? Wouldn't one expect a youthful culture to be more accepting of homosexuality? Maybe this culture suffers more from homophobia and and sexism because it's predominantly male and heterosexual? Do women and (closeted?) queers avoid this culture for these reasons? Chicken? Egg? Are anti-lesbian feelings present in this culture, or is it a non-issue because there are few women? Besides gender and sexuality, what about people of color? The percentages of non-whites in this culture do not reflect the racial demographics of the United States in general, do they? Mmmm, cans of worms. :)

[Shalome]

*applause*

Right on.

[{x}taSy]

god damn woman
where were you yesterday when I was writing my paper?
I would have definitely gotten an A with that

[jesse]

I think the thing about defcon is that people treated how they deserve: act like a dumbass, get treated as such, act like a whore, get treated as such.

Is it unfair, I really don't think so. From what I saw, people earned what they got. Others are welcome disagree with me.

[Shalome]

Are any of you women going next year? Did I meet any of you THIS year?