Vote - Defcon 12 100$usd

[zero]

off the wall idea #1

Up the fee by $25, use the money to by booze that would be offered free, run a breathalyzer for anyone wanting to go to the speeches, and bounce anyone who's drunk. The SK would be plastered in an hour and it'd make seats for those who really wanted to hear the speakers and not just party out.

Course HJ would be an exception.

[boogah]

I don't like the idea one bit. It may keep away "the kiddies" but it also pushes away the people who want to come but can't afford to go. I work hard all year to scrape together enough cash to catch some talks and see friends from all over the world who in most cases I haven't seen in about a year.

I've run the California Caravan since Defcon 6, I helped get NoteEx up and running as a resource to convention goers [although jtx put a lot more work into it than I did] I took my own time and money to make a Kinko's run and print up those silly "Dark Tangent Has A Posse" stickers and save for the two years I gooned I've been a paying attendee since Defcon 5. I remember having $75 to my name that weekend and rooming with a group of eight people I hardly knew. But because most of the folks who attended Defcon that year were stand up people I had the time of my life.

I know there's been a point in time where almost every one of you reading this post has been young, flat broke and had the desire to go do something different and radical. At this point Defcon is one of the last outlets to offer something like that. Look at the people who want to go so badly that they sleep on the pool chairs while risking getting their property stolen or marked up by sharpie wielding drunks. And those people come back year after year because they take something away from the convention that can't be handed over with a $75 badge.

Let's face facts, none of you are Dark Tangent and none of you have the power to set the price on future cons. Seeing as how this is a public forum you're more than welcome to talk all you want about how charging $100 will take away the element you dislike the most - even tho it'll more than likely end up alienating the people who really should attend.

[fluffy]

Honestly, I think with each price increase, especially when the increases are geared for such gimpy reasons as "to keep people away", more and more people will just attend Con and not buy a badge.

I've seen many people that have attended DefCon since 2 or 3 become less willing each year (due to a combination of numerous reasons) to buy a badge -- and so they just don't.

I've seen a number of you in this thread complain that DefCon is moving away from the talks into a 3-day party in Vegas. To be blunt, most people I attend Con with have had this feeling, and been happy with it, since 7 or 8. To them DefCon's a time to see friends that they wouldn't see otherwise throughout the year. So, I really don't think that raising the prices will curb this "problem", it'll just get people who used to buy a badge to not.

Now onto the issue of "scriptkiddies". Perhaps I'm more tolerant, perhaps I'm just not knowledgeable enough in this field to notice -- but it really hasn't seemed like that major of an issue in all the years I've attended Con; I've yet to witness some kid running around screaming about how he was going to "0wn j00 all" while running sshnuke trying to do his best to acheive his goal. I dunno, it just seems like a conference really isn't the time where "scriptkiddies" are allowed to reach their full potential of being annoying twits.

It also seems to be ignored that most "scriptkiddies" are, well, kids. Or at least younger -- with little to no expenses and parents to easilly lean on for money. I think they'll be one of the groups least affected by any price increases.

If the price increases to $100 (and surely if it goes much higher than that), I feel inclined to do what I did this year:
because of a mixup at my bank the day I left for Vegas, I ended up with $80 to my name. I could either buy the $75 badge and have five dollars left over, or use the $80 for other expenses -- I chose the latter and ended up being one of the people you love to hate. I ended up borrowing a badge (which was no real difficulty) for the two conferences, and the one episode of hacker jeopardy I wished to see; I "snuck" in to the Black and White ball for the 40 minutes that I wanted to see the Minibosses. I don't feel like I missed anything by not buying the badge, other than the fact that I won't have that $75 memento laying in my closet.

[guano]

Hmmm... I'm concerned about an increase in the conference fee.
Keep in mind, I've only gone to Defcon 9, 10, and 11...

Defcon 9 has lots of kiddies and anarchists.
Defcon 10 had few kiddies and anarchists. (+$25 was effective)
Defcon 11 had lots of nubies, but not many kiddies or anarchists. (Hell, most folks followed the "no smoking" signs! Probably due to too many feds.)

I don't think increasing the fee another $25 will keep away the remaining kiddies and anarchists.

My concern is with regards to the quality of the conference.

Defcon 9: Many duplicate speakers from BH, but I got to see as many as I wanted.

Defcon 10: Many duplicate speakers from BH, and repeated topics from DC9 (wireless, system hardening, theoretical systems for anonymity), but I got to see as many as I wanted.

Defcon 11: Many duplicate speakers from BH, and repeated topics from DC9 and DC10. (Jay has Bastion Linux, wireless is insecure. Ok, is there anything new?) And I barely got to see any talks. (But the air conditioning actually kept the tent cool!)


I don't mind an increase in cost, but what I want to see:

1. Novelty. (And not just theoretical.) Change up the topics a little. You want wireless? Show me something new. Frankly, I thought Toorcon IV had a more novelty than DC11. How about a review of the latest virus/worm? IDS vs IPS and defeating them? How to piss off IRC kiddies and how they'll react? "I'm being DoS'ed, now what?"

2. Less BH. I like having the opportunity to see some BH talks, but with the amount of duplication, I might as well just go to BH. (Or skip BH since DC costs less.)

3. DAMMIT! I WANNA SEE THE TALKS! I know, the fire marshal was a surprise. I'm not complaining about DC11. But I don't want to be surprised next year. (Remember, it's not just $100, it's airfare, hotel, food, etc.)

4. Better quality talks. The social engineering guys at DC11 finished in 10 minutes -- their ass was saved by Mitnick's impromptu standin. Zimmermann had no preparation -- just an open forum without an introduction or direction.

No excuses -- speakers should be prepared for inadvertant mishaps (hell, Grifter handled being manhandled in stride -- pun intended). Remember: It's Defcon. If things can go wrong, they will. (And Goons can only mitigate so much...)

Try this:
- Select the first draft choice for speakers based on CFP.
- Have them send in a 10 minute audio "rapid presentation".
Do they make sense? Can you understand them?
Did they rely on audio gimmicks and show, or could they
talk you through the content. Were they interesting?
- Select the final speakers.
(By the way, "The Defendant" from DC9 was best speaker I've heard so far. No overheads or computers -- just a microphone. Lively, novel, and informative. And his talk was cut short.)

[octalpus]

You've got some good suggestions there, guano. Perhaps you should take a minute or two and drop some of them to DT.

[guano]

Originally posted by octalpussy
You've got some good suggestions there, guano. Perhaps you should take a minute or two and drop some of them to DT.

Done.

[guano]

Originally posted by guano
Done.

Spoke too soon...
Looks like their spam filter is seeing me as a false-positive.
I changed my real domain to "mydomain" to cut down on spam.

Running /var/spool/mqueue/h7PGon122802 (sequence 1 of 1)
dtangent@defcon.org... Connecting to mail-1.datamerica.com. via esmtp...
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250 colossus.datamerica.com Hello 12-252-49-76.client.attbi.com [12.252.49.76], pleased to meet you
>>> MAIL From:<guano@mydomain.com>
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dtangent@defcon.org... Connecting to mail-2.datamerica.com. via esmtp...
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250 guardian.datamerica.com Hello 12-252-49-76.client.attbi.com [12.252.49.76], pleased to meet you
>>> MAIL From:<guano@mydomain.com>
451 4.1.8 Domain of sender address guano@mydomain.com does not resolve
dtangent@defcon.org... Deferred: 451 4.1.8 Domain of sender address guano@mydomain.com does not resolve
Closing connection to mail-2.datamerica.com.
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221 2.0.0 guardian.datamerica.com closing connection

[pezz]

I have one more suggestion... Why not raise the fee to 100 dollars and take the extra 25 dollars and donate to some type of charity, or better yet a scholarship fund.

4000 *25= 100,000 roughly

This could be divided into many different ways.


I think that this idea could also be used to improve the overall reputation of con.

Input anyone?

[boogah]

Originally posted by pezz
I have one more suggestion... Why not raise the fee to 100 dollars and take the extra 25 dollars and donate to some type of charity, or better yet a scholarship fund.

Why force charity? No matter how you candy coat it, it's still $25 more. People are still going to bitch and you still end up alienating the people who really should but hardly can afford to go.

[renderman]

My thoughts on various points:

I think that +$25 would cut down on some people, which in turn helps keep the overall turnout down (alleviating some of the firemarshall problems). However at what point are you excluding people 'worthy' of attending? I'll be attending no matter what happens to the cost (so you won't be rid of me that easily!!!)

I think though, that with a rise in cost, the con quality needs to go up a proportional amount. I'm not talking free hookers for everyone or anything, but to have some value attached to the increase (i.e. t-shirt, hat, a few special paid speakers/sessions/displays we would'nt normally get) would help justify it a bit. (i.e. Jack (NSA guy) brought an enigma machine to DC8 for us to play on. Very cool)

I don't think that excluding newbies based on newbieness is a good thing. Newbies are not nessecarily SK's. Remember, we all were newbies at one time (I sound like my mom :( ) and I still consider myself a newbie compared to alot of others. DC7 was my first con and I knew a fraction of what I know now, but I found everyone very receptive to explain things if you actually said 'I don't know that, can you explain it'. Curiosity should always be encouraged, stupidity should be shot.

But this whole thread has not really explained what the problem *is* that needs to be solved. What is the problem with that 'other' group that leaves the bad press, feelings and stories? What does this element do to bring the Defcon name down.

I think if that gets figured out, your further along to solving the problem.

(Just my Caffine and work boredom fueled $0.02(CAN) intellectuelesqe post for the day. Proceed with the rest of your lives)

[guano]

Originally posted by renderman
My thoughts on various points:

I think that +$25 would cut down on some people, which in turn helps keep the overall turnout down (alleviating some of the firemarshall problems). However at what point are you excluding people 'worthy' of attending? I'll be attending no matter what happens to the cost (so you won't be rid of me that easily!!!)

I'm going to disagree here.
BlackHat costs much more than "$100" but it has problem children. (This year, they were trying to hijack wireless connections at Caesars. And failing to hijack, they tried to reset.)

I think going from $75 to $100 will have little or no effect on thining the crowd.

Going from $50 to $75 did a noticable job, but $75 to $100 will probably have no impact on the type of people who attend. (Except, maybe, more feds.)

To paraphrase Omar the cabbie... In 3 years it will become "spot the hacker".

[blackwave]

since we continue to masturbate, does anyone have a decent portable viable solution to offer the great dark one ? obviously another venue is out... longer tracks equals more presentations throughout the evening... what has to be done to make sure everyone who pays their way gets the option to sit live in the room, or sit in their room to see the con?

Here is another idea ...

how about you get a different colored badge to see the talks in your room ONLY... or even perhaps optionally (if the room is full you can't get in, and you can't bitch... sor of like a priority, but not really)... of course this "lesser badge" would cost less... perhaps 50 dollars? (I know don't hurt me)....

For 75, or even 100$ you get the "greater badge" in where you have a guar0nt33d seat during the presentation...

I know, I know... this forms a type of cast among the badged ppl of the con... so what?

*remember this is only masturbation, no need to pop a vein.

[Chris]

Originally posted by blackwave

For 75, or even 100$ you get the "greater badge" in where you have a guar0nt33d seat during the presentation...

*remember this is only masturbation, no need to pop a vein.

The problem is....what if EVERYONE wants the guarnteed seat badge? Then you can no longer guarnatee...unless of course you limit the number...and if you are limiting the number..why not just limit the number of regular badges and deal with fewer badge headaches?

[octalpus]

BW's solution seems better than limiting the overall number of badges, because even if you limit the number of "good" badges, people can still get *A* badge, and participate in events, watch talks from the bar, etc.

This would keep people from getting all the way out there just to be turned away, but would allow those who really want to go to the talks to get there early and shell out a bit more for the guarantee that they're going to see the talks they're paying for.

[Chris]

Originally posted by octalpussy
BW's solution seems better than limiting the overall number of badges, because even if you limit the number of "good" badges, people can still get *A* badge, and participate in events, watch talks from the bar, etc.

This would keep people from getting all the way out there just to be turned away, but would allow those who really want to go to the talks to get there early and shell out a bit more for the guarantee that they're going to see the talks they're paying for.

But what of the people that get there and are pissed (and rightly so) becuase the paid X dollars to get to vegas, non-refundable hotel, rental car, etc and wanted a live presentation badge, only to get there and find out that those are sold out?