Defcon Wifi Shootout Contest

[astcell]

If any contest deserves a boatload of prizes more than 12 yaks can carry, it is Capture the Flag, not the Wi-Fi shootout.

[noid]

I'm still cheesed off this morning about this. Its funny, up untill Mr. wifi-shootout decided to open his mouth, I really had no opinion about this. 802.11 has never really turned my crank the way it seems to with others, so I've always paid no attention to things like the Wifi-Shootout and the WWWD. However, I do now have an opinion.

This guy has a whopping 4 posts on the forums. 3 of those posts are promoting his contest. So, other than using the forums to promote his contest, he sees no value add in interacting with the community at large. Other contest owners are active in the defcon community. Some are staff, some are forum mods, some just like to contribute to the community. These people are around all year long. They contribute even when it doesnt involve their contest. Mr. Moore on the other hand does not interact with the Defcon community. He made it abundantly clear in his post that he has far better things to do with his time than spend it being a part of the community that he promotes his contest to. He isn't on the dc-stuff mailing list, he doesnt post on here (unless its to promote his contest), nor does he interact with us in IRC.

I also remember last year at the closing ceremonies. The various contest owners got up, talked briefly about their contest, who won, and anything cool that went on. When it came to the WiFi-Shootout folks, they got up on stage and spent more time than anyone else patting themselves on the back. Seriously, they went at least twice as long, if not longer than anyone else.

Now you tell me Dave, what would you call someone who organizes a contest for a community they dont interact with other than to promote their contest? What would you call someone who gets up in front of a crowd and proceeds to monopolize the limited time available to everyone in order to pat themselves on the back for all the world to see?

I can sum it up in one word. I'd say it here, but apparently you want me to wait till defcon and say it to your face.

[bascule]

Either way, get a life.

I've generally noticed that people who say "get a life" don't seem to have one of their own

[Grifter]

Observations

Now I'm not one to generally be an asshole. <--- This is a lie! But I did have to make a little something, public knowledge.

The IP adress of the wifi-shootout post is...
69.44.178.13
The host name is...
69-44-178-13.wcg.net.

The IP address for the slaphappy post is...
69.44.178.13.
The host name is...
69-44-178-13.wcg.net.

Shocked? Yeah, me neither.

So Dave the next time you tell someone to say something to your face, why don't you take a little of your own advice? Or at least post from a different computer. So now you're a whore, and a hypocrite. Congrats.

[A]

I can sum it up in one word. I'd say it here, but apparently you want me to wait till defcon and say it to your face.

Scavenger Hunt item*: 20 Points - video evidence of any altercation between noid and the wifi shootout guy. (0 points if you are involved)

*may not actualy be a scavenger hunt item

[astcell]

Scavenger Hunt item*: 20 Points - video evidence of any altercation between noid and the wifi shootout guy. (0 points if you are involved)

*may not actualy be a scavenger hunt item

150 points for a picture of Noid hugging Dave Moore in a friendly manner.

[noid]

300 points for a picture of ya'll enjoying a nice warm glass of 'shut the hell up' :surprised

[wifi-shootout]

OK, OK, I'll post, I'll post!! Man, it's like the old flame wars around here! Alright, all flames will be answered in the order in which they were received (sort of), so, you'll just have to wait your turn!

noid wrote:

As a person who puts in 50-60 hour weeks, runs a DCG meeting, organizes two hacker conferences, is active in the local community, works with search and rescue, AND still finds time to be an active and contributing member of the Defcon forums, I have three words for you : Fuck. You. Pal.

Ah, noid, noid. Fine, noid. As a perpetually multi-multi-multi-tasking man, you and your many accomplishments and responsibilities are to be admired. Now, take your list, add building a house (yeah, ME building), caring for a family and tending to a wife that was diagnosed with cancer, and you MIGHT get an idea of the things I have to keep up with. Does that explain why I don't spend much time sitting around posting to forums? I don't have time for a new hobby. Not that it's any of your business. Oh, and don't forget wrangling a contest into shape. Is that enough for you, NOID??????

My "interacting with the Defcon community" is via this contest, and my promotion of it. I've promoted the snot out of Defcon itself for going on three years. It's amazing how many people out there in computerland (who should be more well informed) have never even HEARD of Defcon, much less considered going, or supporting a Defcon event. So, before you go getting all self-righteous on me, walk a mile in these dogs, and then we can get somewhere.

noid also wrote:

I also remember last year at the closing ceremonies. The various contest owners got up, talked briefly about their contest, who won, and anything cool that went on. When it came to the WiFi-Shootout folks, they got up on stage and spent more time than anyone else patting themselves on the back. Seriously, they went at least twice as long, if not longer than anyone else.

This is pure nonsense. DT gave us a 15 minute time limit at the awards ceremony, and that's what we used. Tell you what, maybe I should bring my kitchen timer for next time, and you can use a big, long hook to yank me off when it dings. As for "patting ourselves on the back," we spent time patting the contest WINNERS on the back, because they *deserved* it. But, as far as the TIME goes, we did what we were told we could do.

converge, feigning to provide some "documentation" of definitions, wrote:

dectionary.com -

spam ( P ) Pronunciation Key (spm)
n.
1) Unsolicited e-mail, often of a commercial nature, sent indiscriminately to multiple mailing lists, individuals, or newsgroups; junk e-mail.
2) Posting content to a public forum exclusively to support or promote without participating in that community outside of self-promotion

Gee, converge, I checked DECtionary.com, and they don't seem to provide online definitions. However, DICtionary.com does. Yep, their definition of spam reads the way you quoted it - except for usage 2), which you just plain-old MADE UP!!! What a hoax! Nice try, though, I'll bet it fooled somebody.

TheCotMan wrote:

Would you like a take a chill pill and think things over? This kind of escalation is seldom productive. Resorting to requests like this make it seem like you, "wanna fight," because we all know might makes right--- but does not make correct.

Yeah, you're right. Actually, I wrote that bit AFTER taking the chill pill. And, I appreciate that you're at least trying to communicate something helpful, instead of simply being insulting. Sorry, I don't take kindly to being accused of corruption and "whoredom," which, outside of your post, is about all I've seen in this thread. OK, I take it back. Let's bury the scimitar. noid, call me a whore to my face (during the awards ceremony doesn't count!), and I'll buy you a beer

But, wait! There's more!

Grifter wrote:

Now I'm not one to generally be an asshole. <--- This is a lie! But I did have to make a little something, public knowledge.

The IP adress of the wifi-shootout post is...
69.44.178.13
The host name is...
69-44-178-13.wcg.net.

The IP address for the slaphappy post is...
69.44.178.13.
The host name is...
69-44-178-13.wcg.net.

Shocked? Yeah, me neither.

So Dave the next time you tell someone to say something to your face, why don't you take a little of your own advice? Or at least post from a different computer. So now you're a whore, and a hypocrite. Congrats.

Congratulations, Grifter, your keen detective work has led you to... my offices' router! Sorry to disappoint, but there are a bunch more computers behind that router than mine. But, thanks, at least now *I* know who slaphappy is, and I think I'll give him a raise! Whore? Hypocrite?

Which brings up an interesting question. The only way you can know the IP address of someone who posts to the forums is if you have some sort of root/administrative access, right? I mean, not just any joe-blow forum member is privy to that information, correct? So, what's next? If someone pisses off or otherwise offends a forum admin, what's next? The "making public" of EVERYTHING that the Defcon forum admins have on someone? Do people know that they can expect that sort of treatment? What do we do when a forum admin just HAS "to make a little something, public knowledge."


I ask you: Is the public revealing of the IP addresses of people that post to the forums an abuse of administrative power? This might make good fodder for a new thread in a different Defcon forum.

LATER...

Dave

[highwizard]

<blah blah blah crap>
Ah, noid, noid. Fine, noid. As a perpetually multi-multi-multi-tasking man, you and your many accomplishments and responsibilities are to be admired. Now, take your list, add building a house (yeah, ME building), caring for a family and tending to a wife that was diagnosed with cancer, and you MIGHT get an idea of the things I have to keep up with. Does that explain why I don't spend much time sitting around posting to forums? I don't have time for a new hobby. Not that it's any of your business. Oh, and don't forget wrangling a contest into shape. Is that enough for you, NOID??????

Oh wow, you must be the only freakin person in this community who multitasks. Well, pin a rose on your fucking nose. I think a good deal of us have families to attend to and some of us have sick family members. Oh yea, and while you go pat yourself on the back about your contest, just remember that I organize festivals and parades in my free time with 50-75k participants - But I still have time to post.. Is That enough for you Douche Bag?

Oh yea, and Noid runs Defcon Security which is much more work then your little fucking two bit contest.

My "interacting with the Defcon community" is via this contest, and my promotion of it. I've promoted the snot out of Defcon itself for going on three years. It's amazing how many people out there in computerland (who should be more well informed) have never even HEARD of Defcon, much less considered going, or supporting a Defcon event. So, before you go getting all self-righteous on me, walk a mile in these dogs, and then we can get somewhere.

If the people you bring to Defcon are anything like you, then it would be much better if they stayed at home. You don't care about the Defcon Community, you only care about yourself and your little fucking stupid contest.

This is pure nonsense. DT gave us a 15 minute time limit at the awards ceremony, and that's what we used. Tell you what, maybe I should bring my kitchen timer for next time, and you can use a big, long hook to yank me off when it dings. As for "patting ourselves on the back," we spent time patting the contest WINNERS on the back, because they *deserved* it. But, as far as the TIME goes, we did what we were told we could do.

It's people like you who made my decision to not come this year much much easier. You talk about high-horses, but need to get down off yours, especially since you went after both Grifter and Noid in this post. Do you know that their left nuts do more work at Defcon then your entire contest staff put together.

Gee, converge, I checked DECtionary.com, and they don't seem to provide online definitions. However, DICtionary.com does. Yep, their definition of spam reads the way you quoted it - except for usage 2), which you just plain-old MADE UP!!! What a hoax! Nice try, though, I'll bet it fooled somebody.

Yup, you can put converge in the category of people who do more work then you too. Damn, you're just pissing everyone off. Hey, maybe you should talk to DT and back out of Defcon in the future. Go run your little contest somewhere else.

Yeah, you're right. Actually, I wrote that bit AFTER taking the chill pill. And, I appreciate that you're at least trying to communicate something helpful, instead of simply being insulting. Sorry, I don't take kindly to being accused of corruption and "whoredom," which, outside of your post, is about all I've seen in this thread. OK, I take it back. Let's bury the scimitar. noid, call me a whore to my face (during the awards ceremony doesn't count!), and I'll buy you a beer

I think noid will call you a whore to your face. Infact, I'd come to Defcon just to call you a whore to your face. Maybe that will make it to the Scavenger Hunt list. If not I think all the Defcon Forum members should take it upon themselves to call Dave a whore if they see him. And when he attempts to give his talk at the closing ceremonies make sure that the word whore is shouted out enough times that he regrets the above statement. Maybe it will make him not come back for DC14.

Grifter wrote:

Congratulations, Grifter, your keen detective work has led you to... my offices' router! Sorry to disappoint, but there are a bunch more computers behind that router than mine. But, thanks, at least now *I* know who slaphappy is, and I think I'll give him a raise! Whore? Hypocrite?

I don't know if my tipster was slaphappy; I didn't ask, but, I'm glad he let me know that I should look in, because you grouchy curmudgeons cannot go unanswered. And, I really don't see how your "detective" work on slaphappy proves much. Lots
of people lurk around forums, and never post until they see something about which they wish to speak. Big deal. It doesn't say anything about his comments, and at least he TRIED. After being slammed by you vultures, I don't blame him (or her) for not wanting to waste his time by posting to THIS kind of negative crowd again.

Your tune changed pretty fast there you lying puss bag.

Which brings up an interesting question. The only way you can know the IP address of someone who posts to the forums is if you have some sort of root/administrative access, right? I mean, not just any joe-blow forum member is privy to that information, correct?

Yea, if you actually posted and participated in the forums you would know that he has special rights. Oh wait, maybe that's because he's a real defcon Organizer, unlike you.

So, what's next? If someone pisses off or otherwise offends a forum admin, what's next? The "making public" of EVERYTHING that the Defcon forum admins have on someone? Do people know that they can expect that sort of treatment? What do we do when a forum admin just HAS "to make a little something, public knowledge."

This is alread a standard practice you fucking dipshit. Maybe you should lurk on the forums and read a bit.

I ask you: Is the public revealing of the IP addresses of people that post to the forums an abuse of administrative power? This might make good fodder for a new thread in a different Defcon forum.

Not at all, it's a way to weed out the liars, charlatans, fucktards and asshats (you fit into all those categories). Now go run along back into your little hole, before I really have to make you my cellblock bitch. With the mouth on you I'm sure I could get atleast 3 packs of smokes in trade. You could be the new Defcon Cum-dumpster.

LATER...

Dave

So I open the bounty, a free T-shirt (my new logo/design) for anyone who see's if Dave can float at Defcon. [You could ask him to remove tech, but he's probably a runner]. I need some proof though, like picture or video evidence.

[wifi-shootout]

"highwizard" wrote:

Oh wow, you must be the only freakin person in this community who multitasks. Well, pin a rose on your fucking nose.

The problem with your post, highwizard, is that you don't read what is written. I said that NOID was the multi-tasker who was to be admired, NOT myself. I was paying him a compliment, which went right over your head.

I know there are people who put more into Defcon than myself, and probably more than you, too. DUH! You are to be commended for organizing your festivals and parades. I'm glad you can have a busy life, and still spend lots of time on the forums. I don't. Hmmmm, then what am I doing here, if I'm so busy? I know, I'm blowing off mowing the lawn, so that I can defend the Wifi Shootout contest against people who don't read what is written, and will never be satisfied.

...you went after both Grifter and Noid in this post.

I went after them??? Again, you don't read what's written, which pretty much typifies your entire flaming post.

I think all the Defcon Forum members should take it upon themselves to call Dave a whore if they see him. And when he attempts to give his talk at the closing ceremonies make sure that the word whore is shouted out enough times that he regrets the above statement.

Be advised, though, that the offer for the beer only goes to noid.

Yeah, this whole hassle started because of folks who accused the contest of being corrupt. It is NOT corrupt, I am NOT going to back down on that point, and I will NOT submit to lies about it. Period.

[TheCotMan]

Yeah, you're right. Actually, I wrote that bit AFTER taking the chill pill. And, I appreciate that you're at least trying to communicate something helpful, instead of simply being insulting. Sorry, I don't take kindly to being accused of corruption and "whoredom," which, outside of your post, is about all I've seen in this thread. OK, I take it back.

Allowing words to control your actions puts you at risk for manipulation and control. Now one of your "buttons" has been exposed, and predictability in your behavior can lead to exploitation in the right circumstances.

Congratulations, Grifter, your keen detective work has led you to...

You want to blame someone's detective work, blame me. I brought up the issue of both posts having the same IP address elsewhere.

Why did I bring it up elsewhere? You see we have this rule:

6. Multiple Accounts
One account per user. We catch you with multiple accounts ... you will be banned.

Which goes to the item about IP addresses later in this reply.

my offices' router! Sorry to disappoint, but there are a bunch more computers behind that router than mine. But, thanks, at least now *I* know who slaphappy is, and I think I'll give him a raise! Whore? Hypocrite?

Silly. You complain about the negative content on the forums, but bring more and now claim to encourage it at work by offering a raise to the person who did what you complained about? Paying people to add negative content to the forums? In local law, paying someone to commit a murder makes you just as responsible for that murder as the one who performed the service for you.

Which brings up an interesting question. The only way you can know the IP address of someone who posts to the forums is if you have some sort of root/administrative access, right?... what's next? If someone pisses off or otherwise offends a forum admin, what's next? The "making public" of EVERYTHING that the Defcon forum admins have on someone?

This has been done before and this is related to One account per user. We catch you with multiple accounts ... you will be banned.

Do people know that they can expect that sort of treatment?

Yes. Many examples exist. Link provided above.

What do we do when a forum admin just HAS "to make a little something, public knowledge."

Many things can cause it. Some examples have been offered.

I ask you: Is the public revealing of the IP addresses of people that post to the forums an abuse of administrative power?

No. It has been done before your post, and will happen again.

[converge]

Okay Dave.. if you rather discuss this in person, fine, hit me up at Defcon.. we'll shoot the shit over a beer or two and chat about good times that never happened. But lets make a few things clear until then. I will try to be more straightforward in this post, so that you can understand some of the things I say. You have proven that you can read what I say.. kudos.. now lets work on the comprehension part.

First, lets make sure you understand that I don't think you are, personally, the being of Dave Moore, a whore. I never said 'wow that motherfucker Dave Moore is such a whore lolz11 teehee', nor anything in the vicinity. I have never met you irl.. at least to my sketchy Defcon recollections.. outside of seeing you dance on the stage. What I did say (in slightly different verbage patterns), and will gladly say to you, your fellow organizers, or on stage in front of the entire Defcon crowd: The Wifi Shootout (and the organizers thereof) have set the premise for the contest to annually whore itself out to both sponsors and media on a steadily increasing basis. Previously used words such as "remember" and "math" allude to your announcement that this year, 'for a limited time' mind you, the contest is accepting EVEN MORE sponsors and media attention. This very much has the taste of corporate marketing strategy to sell others on the contest by promoting how much it has been promoted in the past. This is where many attendees are concluding the whoredom, Dave.

SEGMENT 1: THE SLAPHAPPY FACTOR

I've always thought the Wifi Shootout was pretty cool (and, from the ovation the winners got last year, so most folks at Defcon)

This is making the mean assumption that 'most folks at Defcon' attend the Awards Ceremony. This also assumes that the majority are geniunely interested in the contest and not a) applauding to finally end your blownout segment of the awards ceremony b) applauding to lend support for the contestants having the balls to get on stage in front of everyone c) applauding because everyone else is applauding and at that moment it is a generally accepted social mark that you should also participate in. Also consider that the 'majority' argument is a pretty lame one, because the majority of attendees also think that blinking LED casemods are the kewlest thing since mIRC and have no clue how to actually use a variant of SSH. You can argue this sounds elitest. ... it is truth. For every bright, amazing attendee at the conference their are no less than 15 dumbfounded attendees that figured out how to pirate a LAN game.

Who CARES if they get corporate sponsors? Why NOT??

Well.. apparently some people do. As TheCotMan pointed out, several threads on this board exist discussing pros and cons of sponsorship and why people happen to 'CARE'. The most pointed reason in this instance being that more time was spent at the awards ceremony listing out the sponsors and media organizations of the contest (and patting them on the back) than actually giving useful feedback about contest happenings. Maybe this is because contest happenings are less eventful than the timeframe used to portray them? I have not participated so I can only speculate. I will say that I have to scratch my head when I look at some of the 'teams' that it takes to both organize and participate in the event. One could assert that it would take less people to completely dismantle the US Government and its institutions. But alas, I will not venture off into comparisons and ambiguous metaphors that might send Mr. Moore's head spinning for his next response.. I will return to ranting about the Awards Ceremony later on.

Yours sound more like the words of those arrogant, elitist, snobbish, "oh look, I'm a *hacker*" pricks that have come to typify all that is bad about Defcon.

Bad about Defcon according to whom? Those that bear the attitude but can't show up the skills to back it... are churned out and crushed. The only folks that don't laugh at them and bring their head back down to earth are the ones that don't know better and idolize them for something they are not. Those that have enough skills in their middle finger to make you wet your pants are what MAKE DEFCON... and many of them are humble enough to leave you completely clueless as to who they are in the crowd. Your bantor makes it sound more like your a disappointed attendee feeling left out of the 'in-crowd' (whoever these people are in your mind).

Posting how awesome I am for being me and how much you suck for being you would reek of snob. All of the posts in this thread thusfar simply state our collective opinions on how lame and overblown the contest is. We're not saying you have to agree with us, but arguing that we've got our noses stuck in the clouds doesn't quite cut it because you clearly used this as a tool to avoid 'bothering' to discuss the actual merits of our complaints. Frankly I think the contest is long overdue on being called to bat for its actions and presence.

SEGMENT 2: CRUSHING TEH REBELS

I had asked Russ if he could get the contest announced under a new category

Yes, Russ is a cool guy. However, most people that run events actually communicate with the board admins and mods for help posting the content in a special way... or.. fuckitall.. they just up and post it in the community discussion area. You have to acknowledge that the act of sending an announcement to have someone else post FOR you, on a forum that you could give a flying fuck about... could make some of its members (at minimum) a little antsy and displeased with your methods. This grumble will be detailed at a later date, however.

The whole next paragraph about 'curmudgeons', 'detectives', and 'vultures' (oh, my).. was just a 20 second waste of my life. There's nothing to pick apart there that hasn't already been made light of.

So you think that the Wifi Shootout "whores" itself out

yep.. that'd be the sum of it thar. Good detective work on your part.

I'm damn proud of our sponsors, and proud of the hard work that contest staff puts in to *getting* those sponsors

Thank you for making our point. Most of us could care less about who sponsored what. In the contests I have been a part of, I am particularly proud of a personal goal preset to make the contest technically better and more interesting than the year before (aka the geek WOW factor), or the contestants accomplishing something cool that has not technically been accomplished before. Exploiting something that has not been exploited, solving a problem in a way that has not been approached before, breaking shit and then making a better mouse trap.. creative innovation. That is, in large part, what Defcon is about, right? So Dave, how can you seriously approach a group being critical about sponsorship and have the balls to say that you are 'proud of the sponsors and the intense work your crew puts in to get all of them"?

Good work deserves its good reward, good rewards stimulate innovation

Yes, sounds a lot like capitalism. Capitalism is good, and works really well. It has been my impression for a long time that much of the hacker mentality aims to break tradition from these predefined notions of how the world works. ..not necessarily to the Anarchist extent that some take it, but as an extension of traditional infrustructure to show that really cool things *can* come from unexpected places at unexpected times regardless of location, nationality, financial gain, status, etc.

Sure, hackers do it for the fun of it, and winning cool prizes is ALSO FUN.

...
What can I say to that?.. I guess .. 'If you don't get it, then, you just don't get it.' /shrug

The first definition that popped up for "whore" was "to corrupt by lewd intercourse."

Sexy, a word with only one meaning and context? This is specifically why I posted the followup that I did.

You wanna know how I "whore" myself out for this contest? I contact potential sponsors, tell them about the contest, and they say yes or no. That's IT. There's no corruption or anything else going on.

... that sounds about right. I don't think anyone would argue the process of getting sponsors.

Also, I must not be making much of a "name" for myself, because when I call, I usually get something like, "Dave WHO?!? The Deaf Mom Boot Out Contest? What's that?"

I don't believe anyone has thusfar said anything about the making of 'names' or popularity. It should be pointed out though that the act of 'making a name for yourself' generally involves pushing yourself out to people that don't know you, regardless of a good or bad means to accomplish it... otherwise you'd just be impressing your friends with something cool. It also makes me curious why it is desirable to hunt down people for money and support that have no clue what Defcon is.

SEGMENT 3: THE MEAT GOES ON

And I'm appalled that converge feels motivated to disrespect a bunch of teenagers

Frankly, I'm appalled that you're appalled at my willingness to disrespect anyone on the grounds that I disrespected them. But wait.. you didn't quite get it.

because they used Dreamweaver to build a web page.

Ok.. back to the reading AND understanding requirement. If you review my statement, I was completely disrespecting their misguided usage of CENTERED TEXT. If you visit their site, absolutely ALL content was centered. I would laugh at ANYONE for that, regardless of age or ability to wipe their ass. I can't remember seeing something the likes of that from a so-called technical group since AOL started pushing that 'internet-thingy'. Someone might argue that it is not about the style, design is all pointless, it's all about the content. GREAT!... I couldn't agree more in many cases. But by centering text, you have already implied that you accept some form of responsibility for portraying a design.. otherwise you would have simply left your text aligned as default by the browser. This atrocious style alone forced me to breifly examine their html out of curiousity. It was here that I discovered that Dreamweaver was the authoring program that generated such brilliant ascii, simply an additional slam to an already salty wound. It had NOTHING to do with the tool, and EVERYTHING to do with its usage.

That would be like me insulting him for getting that info by clicking on "View/PageSource,"

Alas.. my shell had no such button to click on... but maybe ssh clients are more arcane and 1337 than I thought? woohoo .. now I'm ALL POWERFULLL!!! /shrug You're right.. that argument would be lame because viewing source is viewing source, regardless of how you accomplish it. It's all about the act of doing and not how you're doing it.. right? But if you're doing it then you should at least attend to what your doing, which was the point of my post altogether. If I told you that I used IE's 'View Source' menu option to try and figure out what my IP thingy was.. you would have every right in the world to make fun of me.

So, if you don't like how we run the contest, fine, don't like it. That's no excuse for you to insult people you don't even know!

But if not liking the contest, how it is run, and expressing the reason(s) *why* insults you then how can we possibily avoid it?

I, too, will not be back to regularly joust with the holier-than-thou crowd, as I've got *real* work to do.

I don't really remember ever being 'here' in the first place. Although I do find this statement amusing because it is usually the start of a rather lengthy argumentative thread and rarely the last time you see someone post. Checking the forums today has affirmed this and created the reason for my lengthy response. Basically.. shit.. if we're all gonna keep playing, I wanna play too!! What good is a decent flame war if you can toss some poo for fun and profit?

Dave Moore, Founder, Defcon Wifi Shootout Contest

Okay, this is the point where readers should also bear in mind as they read this enthralling quibble.. that the mighty 'DEFCON Wifi Shootout" is entirely and UNOFFICIAL EVENT that has absolutely nothing to do with Defcon other than a mutual interest by some of the attendees and the organizers. Thats right.. they go out in the desert for a chunk of the weekend and could be fucking rattlesnakes or peeing on cacti for all most of us know or care. We now return you to this quite unscheduled rant.

STATION BREAK:

At this point in the thread, TheCotMan has pointed out that if you don't like what a lot of people are saying about YOUR contest, you might take interest in what they are saying, why they are saying it, and if or how you might modify your contest to improve it. Absolutely nothing you have said in this thread shows interest in improving the contest based on feedback about it. You have made great extents to point out that you are simply upset that we're not going along with your program and insulted that we would say anything to the contrary of what TechTV has told you.

If any contest deserves a boatload of prizes more than 12 yaks can carry, it is Capture the Flag, not the Wi-Fi shootout.

I just thought I'd quote this here because it was a really good point. I'm not highlighting this because I claim any involvement in CTF, nor a third of the skill required to survive it. But if you are hell bent on taking your contest seriously and really rewarding skill, this one sentence weighs very much on that concept.

SEGMENT 4: BACK IN FLACK

Now, take your list, add ..

I'm sorry.. which large-scale conferences do you help run again? It sounds like you have a lot on your plate, I'll grant you that. But most everybody that maintains this level of involvement with their passions is. As HighWizard stated, most of us have families, ill loved ones, etc. It sounds like the standard retort of 'oh you think you're busy, well ..'. Of course, everyone is busier than the other person, everyone has it harder than the other person. I have spent half my life witnessing myself and others justify why they have more or less stake in something than someone else. I have come to believe at this point in my existance that it is human nature to justify the usage of your limited time. It also doesn't bode well for a busier-than-thou mentality though.

My "interacting with the Defcon community" is via this contest, and my promotion of it

Mr. Moore on the other hand does not interact with the Defcon community. He made it abundantly clear in his post that he has far better things to do with his time than spend it being a part of the community that he promotes his contest to.

So, what exactly are you defining 'community' as? Are you saying that the handful of Defcon attendees who clap for the contest at the Awards Ceremony are how you interact with the event? .. because if you look at a vast number of those that actually where the Defcon tat throughout a given year (ie forums, irc, lists, groups, etc) ... most of us seem to think contrary to your 'involvement' status. I would also like to recall at this point that the contest is *so* involved and close to Defcon, that it remains entirely an UNOFFICIAL EVENT in its third year.

So, before you go getting all self-righteous on me

Why is it that everyone that disagrees with you is certifiably self-righteous and holier than you are? If I knew reaching Valhalla was that easy, I'd have started defending misguided ideologies years ago.

DT gave us a 15 minute time limit at the awards ceremony, and that's what we used.

In this thread and the posts thereof lie many opinions and subjective concepts that could be argued either way with no particular standpoint other than your own. This single line of text in your post is the BIGGEST CROCK OF SHIT I've heard yet. Okay.. maybe not the biggest in my lifetime, but it definately ranks up there Dave. Of course, you used the 15 minutes.. just to begin introducing the contest organizers and how awesome of a job they did. Then came the orgy of sponsors, media, and every sub category of every possible ranking in the contest and who won what and where, including contestants that did not even get their equipment to work. I thought the runtime of the rundown at DC11 was far too long and bitched about it afterwards, then let it go. Throughout the year it became a jab joke that I could throw into the mix whenever something was running long... for example, like reading a post from TheCotMan (sorry dood.. you know the rep will never die now).

Then came the Shootout awards segment at Defcon 12 and all my expectations for the timeframe were completely thrown out the window, down 20 stories, into oncoming traffic and rapped aside into an alley where they were soon desecrated by hobo jizz. Yes.. steaming bum sperm. If Jeff had been tossed into the pool before the Shootout announcements, his clothes would have been dry by its end. So to the statement that you took your 15 minutes give or take the second hands on your kitchen clock.. I say BULLSHIT. Now if you want to discuss the merit of whether or not your guys should have been up on the stage that long, fine. "If you fucking beat this prick long enough, he'll tell you he started the goddamn Chicago fire. Now that don't necessarily make it fucking so!"

While I'm on the subject of the Awards Ceremony.. just what the fuck *was* up with the whole panties and books prize that the only all-girl team got? .. just thought I could get some clarification while the topic is at hand and you are for once available to comment.

SEGMENT 5: TO DEFINE THE FLAWS OF PERDITION

Gee, converge, I checked DECtionary.com, and they don't seem to provide online definitions

Good observation George. Although I can't entirely fault your misunderstanding here; the reference to dectionary.com is an inside joke from #dc-forums that lasted a good month or so.

Yep, their definition of spam reads the way you quoted it - except for usage 2)

okay.. so the primary point of the post, for those who couldn't figure it out, was to show that there are indeed multiple definitions as well as connotations for the word 'whore'. This was brought on by your lack of lingual suave in the 'first definition' assertion. For added value, I thought it would be comical to include another tidbit.. a definition for spam. The addition of a second line sure didn't fool you or anyone else though, did it. AWESOME! That's because it was designed as a jab to a fact that noid later brought up:

This guy has a whopping 4 posts on the forums. 3 of those posts are promoting his contest.

The fourth post being, of course, your response to people speaking ill of your contest. I'm very glad you didn't let my wily feigning get past anyone.. that could have been bad.

So, what's next? If someone pisses off or otherwise offends a forum admin, what's next? The "making public" of EVERYTHING that the Defcon forum admins have on someone? Do people know that they can expect that sort of treatment?

hahah .. yeah dood.. It's called 'Fucktard Hall' and I'm surprised this thread hasn't made it there as a trophy thread. It is in the RULES section that this is a PUBLIC forum and that host information WILL be made publicly available if deserved. Well.. not many people knew that it was your workplaces router until you said so. Of course.. you did know about that, being a forum member and all right? I don't really think another scandalous thread is necessary to hash all that out..

CONCLUSION:

This post has been simply the best use of my life blood in a while and I will surely look back on it with fond memories. .. and if you think this was bad, just wait until you have to read TheCotMan's response to it! (WHaaaBAM.. 2 in a post).

[TheCotMan]

...for example, like reading a post from TheCotMan (sorry dood.. you know the rep will never die now).
...
and if you think this was bad, just wait until you have to read TheCotMan's response to it! (WHaaaBAM.. 2 in a post).

Heh-heh. :-)

During my first 6 to 9 months here I was harassed for my long posts. (Hey, I am slow, okay?) Initially I thought it was just from a few people who didn't like to read much, but as time moved forward, I found the opinion was more wide-spread.

How does this relate to the topic here?

I learned from my mistake, and now my posts are generally much shorter*.

What is the cost of my mistake? The reputation of being longwinded and used as the metric when comparing other long posts.

How do I respond to these jabs? With humor-- I deserve these comments, because I accept responsibility for my actions as a member playing with others.

* Shorter than before. (heh)
Example (me being long-winded)
Example (complaint) (One of my favorite when looking back)

[astcell]

Jokes like DECtionary are understod only by those who hang out here long enough to understand the lingo by reading posts and replies to posts. In other words, be part of the community. (What a concept).

TheCotMan, yes your posts were long, but in person please ~do~ ramble in great detail. We love that stuff but on the boards it just has a different perspective.

And Dave, Mr. Wifishootout, the other night I banned an asshat for asking how to hack in several forums. I PM'ed him and he replied with a lewd message so out he went. I did give him a chance to straighten up. I would much rather see folks learn what the forums are about and join in. There are many more people at Defcon than on the boards. It takes all kinds.

Now I have some news that you may not wish to hear. Contrary to what you may think, you did not invent Wifi. You did not invent wardriving. You did not write Netstumbler. Or maybe you did and I missed the memo. If you decided to leave and take your toys with you, the event would continue. It'd probably be taken over by someone who does it for the love of it and nothing else.

From my non-participant perspective, I have come to a few conclusions which may be incorrect, and if so then a disservice has been done to the events surrounding these conclusions. I am positive I am not the only one who feels like this.

1. You DID take too long at the podium last year. Maybe you took the allotted amount of time but like bad TV commercials and Latin Masses, they seem too long and are irritating. You have a captive audience. You did not make the presentations fun for us in the audience, you were entertaining only yourself. Mr. Popeil must be your teacher.

2. Your prize patrol was way overblown. Now if I were you, I'd probably have given away half that stuff to folks at the pool, to folks who got closed out of talks, to the kid who wished he had $30 for a wifi card but was flat broke after getting to Defcon, maybe ask trivia questions about wifi and handed it out like candy. Make a name for yourself in other places than in your own mind. It is all those prizes that give me the "I can be bought" view of you.

3. We invite you to read other forums here, NOT just wifi. I view the number of posts someone has and weigh the value of thier input on that. I have seen folks with 6 posts make a great name for themselves (like TheCotMan), and there are those with 106 posts who never get a clue. These are exceptions to the rule and your demeanor is not endearing enough to add you to TheCotMan category. Think of them as hit points, and choose your targets accordingly.

4. Your replies to each and every line of type here have a legal reply appearance. Yes, maybe you break the posts into 42 individual points then you argue those points one at a time until you win each one, therefore that clears you of the overall issue. Sounds like the defense O.J. took. Sounds like a defense little kids take too. When you move your mouth (or in this case type) you're just digging a hole. I think I'd think more positively of you had I not read any of your posts.

I'll buy you a beer at Defcon under ~2~ conditions. We talk while we drink, and the one verboten subject is wifi.

[highwizard]

4. Your replies to each and every line of type here have a legal reply appearance. Yes, maybe you break the posts into 42 individual points then you argue those points one at a time until you win each one, therefore that clears you of the overall issue. Sounds like the defense O.J. took. Sounds like a defense little kids take too. When you move your mouth (or in this case type) you're just digging a hole. I think I'd think more positively of you had I not read any of your posts.

But that doesn't work here... For we know a good deal of the Defcon Forum members lurk the forums, waiting for someone with half a brain (he's got half atleast!) to tear to shreads.