Ideas for Defcon 15

[Z^2]

Re: Ideas for Defcon 15

So I found myself not knowing quite where to go - I mean, there were things that I wanted to go to, but stuff was spaced so far apart that if I stayed for, say, half a lecture to see what it was about, I might as well stay for the whole thing because by the time that I'd get up and go to another one if I didn't find it interesting, the others would be over. I hear this won't be an issue next year if we do get the rooms that were the dart convension this year, so that will be good. But could the talks be in closer rooms? Track 3 was very far from the others, where we might get more people going to talks if they can float around a general 'presentation area'. Then people in a general 'doing stuff' or 'buying stuff' area can make piles of noise without bothering presenters. (This was my first con, so I don't know if that's how stuff has been in the past or not.)

The main thing is why are things scheduled for the day? I'm running under the assumption that most of the other con-goers hold similar hours to mine, and that most people aren't really awake for any 'morning' sessions of anything, barring of course people who don't sleep. I'm sure people who run, for example, LPcon don't want to hang out there all night long while the parties are going, but 10AM starting time? Could we schedule things for later in the day? People will be awake until 3 or 6AM anyway, and dragging them out of bed earlier in the day to catch various talks/events might just be wasting precious coffee/redbull (at least in my case). Or possibly, for example with the presentations, have more tracks of talks for shorter periods of time (like from noon until five or something)?

[TheCotMan]

Re: Ideas for Defcon 15

So I found myself not knowing quite where to go - I mean, there were things that I wanted to go to, but stuff was spaced so far apart that if I stayed for, say, half a lecture to see what it was about, I might as well stay for the whole thing because by the time that I'd get up and go to another one if I didn't find it interesting, the others would be over. I hear this won't be an issue next year if we do get the rooms that were the dart convension this year, so that will be good. But could the talks be in closer rooms? Track 3 was very far from the others, where we might get more people going to talks if they can float around a general 'presentation area'. Then people in a general 'doing stuff' or 'buying stuff' area can make piles of noise without bothering presenters. (This was my first con, so I don't know if that's how stuff has been in the past or not.)

One of the side-effects of growing, means more space to use, and greater distances to walk.

(Ouch my feet.)

At the Alexis Park, there was opportunity for presentations to be spread even further apart, due to use of portable tents in parking lots, or on the roof, and use of rooms, several twists and turns down hallways away from another room.

Distance to walk from one presentation to another is about the same, but distance to chiil-out spaces, vendor rooms, an Sky Boxes is much further at the Riv.

Even though this extra walking (and bad shoes) lead to sore feet, I'd keep my sore feet and the Riv, just so I didn't have to deal with the lines of the AP, and the risks associated with them, such as not being able to get into a really good presentation.

The best advice for people new to Defcon is hook up with people you knew before Defcon, and who have been to Defcon before. This can be done by visiting you local Defcon Groups.

The main thing is why are things scheduled for the day? I'm running under the assumption that most of the other con-goers hold similar hours to mine, and that most people aren't really awake for any 'morning' sessions of anything, barring of course people who don't sleep. I'm sure people who run, for example, LPcon don't want to hang out there all night long while the parties are going, but 10AM starting time? Could we schedule things for later in the day? People will be awake until 3 or 6AM anyway, and dragging them out of bed earlier in the day to catch various talks/events might just be wasting precious coffee/redbull (at least in my case). Or possibly, for example with the presentations, have more tracks of talks for shorter periods of time (like from noon until five or something)?

There was a time when Defcon was one track, with very little else in the way of official stuff going on, on the side. I am not a goon, or organizer, but as a casual observer, I can say it appears as though there is an attempt to pack as much as possible into the 3 days defcon officially takes place.
So much stuff is packed into Defcon, that new stuff overflows the previous boundaries.
Defcon now "kind of" starts on Thursday, with badges being sold, The Toxic BBQ, and other unofficial pre-con events like The Summit, and other gatherings, which have increased in size.

Just like everyone else, you have to set your priorities. Some people skip sleep for 3 days. Some people plan on visiting a few key presentations, and let everything else happen as they find interest. Some people spend each day in a contest, or multiple contests, or just lounge around, or sleep until the parties warm up.

On the plus side, in the past, certain presentations and topic come up year, after year. This means, the more conferences you attend, and the more Defcons you attend, the fewer the number of presentations that you have not seen in some shape or form. This gives you more time for other Defcon events , contests or parties.

Overwhelming for first timers? Sure, but that leaves more for next year.

[Voltage Spike]

Re: Ideas for Defcon 15

But could the talks be in closer rooms?

It may not jibe with the hacker do-it-yourself approach, but I prefer that the talks be spaced as far apart as possible. The setup provides an excellent opportunity to pass through the do-ing areas (contests, social gatherings) whilst enjoying the see-ing areas (talks). If track 1, 2, and 3 were together, then I, personally, would probably end up walking more due to frequent out-and-back trips between presentations. Furthermore, it can sometimes be difficult to convince friends to leave only to come back, and I like the fact that the two essentially different crowds are forced to interact with each other (it was what helped me get into the con all those years back.)

[artistic_chaos]

Re: Ideas for Defcon 15

i know that the hotel didn't want anything affixed to the walls, however.

If none of the other ideas work, we could use sandwich boards...

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: Ideas for Defcon 15

If none of the other ideas work, we could use sandwich boards...

sandwich boards would (in my humble prediction) be almost instantly knocked over and would be hardly readable unless you're right in front of them. i feel very strongly that we should look into solutions that would result in large signage being prominently displayed above head height on the walls, preferably over the doorways.

this could be accomplished either with banners strung between poles or with my "projection" idea (which i feel didn't get enough love)

seriously, how hard could these things be to make? i've seen them used by small stores in order to project a cup of coffee or a running shoe onto a city sidewalk outside their business. if a mom and pop footwear company can slap one of these things up, surely we can score/make some. i just can't google for them effectively yet because i don't know the appropriate name that they actually are given.

[tequilastrapple]

Re: Ideas for Defcon 15

this could be accomplished either with banners strung between poles or with my "projection" idea (which i feel didn't get enough love)

I think it's a brilliant idea. Sorry for being tardy with the love-giving. The next time I see one of these, I'll ask what it's called.

I would like to bring up something completely unrelated to the current signage discussion, regarding future improvements for Defcon at the Riviera. If you are a smoker, please don't hate me for what I'm about to say. Just hear me out.

I had a hard time contending with the cigarette smoke at the Riv, especially in the conference area. Even though I avoided high smoke areas (meaning that I had to ban myself from the Black ball and the Friday night penthouse party after only a few minutes – which is a bummer because I am a hot dancer), I had tightness in my chest and soreness when taking deep breaths beginning Friday afternoon, and it became progressively worse through the weekend. This was not a surprise, as it is simply what happens to my body when I am exposed to smoke of any kind – cigarette, campfire, whatever. This problem also prevents me from attending Pumpcon (a small Philly-based annual con) and many other social events.

Okay, enough with the sob story. The point is, I never had this problem at the AP. Am I correct in recalling that smoking was not allowed in the AP conference rooms? Or did the air filtration system simply work a lot better there? And of course, it was easy to avoid smoky parties. Socializing and dancing poolside was a lot more fun than doing so in a dark, loud, and cramped room, anyhow.

I understand and appreciate that smoking is important to a lot of people. I am not trying to propose that smoking be banned in Defcon’s conference spaces. And besides, it’s Riviera policy for smoking to be permitted in its spaces, so even if DC organizers decided to try to limit smoking, I question whether the Riviera powers-that-be would support the enforcement. And of course, smoking policy at private parties is entirely up to the organizers of those parties, which is as it should be.

But does anyone have any suggestions as to what can be done to arrive at fair accommodations in the conference areas and hallways for smokers and non-smokers alike? The only place I was able to go to for relief was to my room, or outside – which, during the heat of the day, is hardly a relief to strained lungs. I would really like for myself and others who share my problem to be able to enjoy future Defcons without feeling ill the whole time.

[TheCotMan]

Re: Ideas for Defcon 15

Am I correct in recalling that smoking was not allowed in the AP conference rooms? Or did the air filtration system simply work a lot better there? And of course, it was easy to avoid smoky parties. Socializing and dancing poolside was a lot more fun than doing so in a dark, loud, and cramped room, anyhow.

I believe you are correct. I remember there was even goon enforcement of the no-smoking in the conference spaces at the AP.

Before the AP, there was so much smoking at Defcon, at the casino venues, you could see clouds of smoke in the conference rooms, and air filtration did not kick in too well. In those days, I coughed up black, brown and eventually white/yellow stuff from my lungsfor about 1.5 weeks, post-con.

As the years have moved forward, the percent of people weaing black tee shirts has gone down, the number of women (visiting in a capacity other than SceneWhore, Sig-O, or other-category-but-still-not--there-as-hackers) has gone up, the number of Feds has *really* gone up (I think this is partly due to talent being turned to the "light/dark side" depending on your point of view), the number of people paid by their company (corporations) to attend has gone up significantly, AND the percent of smokers has gone down. Things have really improved for non-smokers.

does anyone have any suggestions as to what can be done to arrive at fair accommodations in the conference areas and hallways for smokers and non-smokers alike?

Gas masks: they could double as a fettish accessory for people into asphyxiation and air-control S/M (see auto-erotica asphyxiation as one example.). They could work at the Black Ball, for sure-- especially if you tried to talk through one. However, I'm not sure how well they would work in the conference spaces-- people might hear "Darth Vader" or be reminded of the sounds of someone being kept on life support and get freaked out.

The only place I was able to go to for relief was to my room, or outside – which, during the heat of the day, is hardly a relief to strained lungs. I would really like for myself and others who share my problem to be able to enjoy future Defcons without feeling ill the whole time.

This was the first casino Defcon that I attended where I did not have to cough up black stuff when I got home. For me, this was an improvement.

I don't know what can be done to make a smoking-free zone. I guess 3 small rooms, dedicated to video feeds, which were non-smoking might work for presentations, but that monopolizes 3 rooms for the entire con, and estimation of room size for expected utilization could be ttricky. It also takes away the "community" aspect, and denies the whole in-person Questions and Answers period.

Raising questions and complaints can be good, but it is better to offer suggestions of what you think can be done to fix the problem.

(I am not a goon or organizer, I'm just some forum-jerk with a meaningless high postcount. If you have other ideas, please post them, and generate discussion about them, as there are goons that read these forums. Giving them ideas to solve problems is more advantageous than just finding problems. ;-)

[shrdlu]

Re: Ideas for Defcon 15

Before the AP, there was so much smoking at Defcon, at the casino venues, you could see clouds of smoke in the conference rooms, and air filtration did not kick in too well.

I remember this as well. I'm a non-smoker, and would do my best to either sit in an isolated spot, or else try to pick an area that didn't seem inhabited by smokers. The whole thing was smaller then, so it was easier. DC7 was at the Plaza (I think), and that was tolerable. DC6 was a nightmare, as was DC5. Those years, cigars were fashionable, and every moron on the planet had them.

Things have really improved for non-smokers.

I guess I see that there's a little less smoke this time out than there was then, but I really think that defcon needs to prohibit smoking in the speaking rooms themselves, no matter what the Riv's policy is on it. Nearly everyone can handle being without a cigarette for an hour. I'd even be happy to see the speaker(s) have an exception. I've seen too many terrified speakers; no sense making it worse. If it's in the halls or outside, you can walk away.

I don't know what can be done to make a smoking-free zone. I guess 3 small rooms, dedicated to video feeds, which were non-smoking might work for presentations, but that monopolizes 3 rooms for the entire con, and estimation of room size for expected utilization could be ttricky. It also takes away the "community" aspect, and denies the whole in-person Questions and Answers period.

I believe that *most* people attending are not interested in the "community" aspect. I'm happy to see people that I see once or twice a year, at best, but trying to claim that the 5000+ attendees are a community seems to be an artifice that should be dropped. It's easy to make a smoking-free zone. Go back to the AP rules, and tell them to take it outside. Posting signs on the doors saying no smoking in the conference rooms is pretty easy.

Raising questions and complaints can be good, but it is better to offer suggestions of what you think can be done to fix the problem.

I think that the OP making the suggestion was just a little thrown by the experience of not being able to get away from it. There does seem to be a much greater percentage of smokers in the Defcon attendee group than in the normal geek population. I attend other conferences; these include Toorcon, Shmoocon, and Layerone. I just don't see the number of smokers at those smaller venues. In the normal population, the incidence of smoking is inversely tied to education (i.e. less than high school, 48% smokers, Phd, 6%). I wonder what that says about the number of people smoking at defcon...

I am not a goon or organizer, I'm just some forum-jerk with a meaningless high postcount.

I'd fight you to the wall on this one. I've watched you over the past few months, and I think you are doing great work, helping to glue the conceptual Defcon Forum into something workable.

[tequilastrapple]

Re: Ideas for Defcon 15

I appreciate your thoughtful responses. Thank you for taking me seriously. I had steeled myself for a barrage of “Fuck non-smoking whiners,” à la Chris. But maybe this is still to come...

Before the AP, there was so much smoking at Defcon, at the casino venues, you could see clouds of smoke in the conference rooms, and air filtration did not kick in too well. In those days, I coughed up black, brown and eventually white/yellow stuff from my lungsfor about 1.5 weeks, post-con.

I think you have come up with the only reason why I can be glad I did not start attending until DC10. My recovery last week only took about three days, and I managed to skip the black/brown phase altogether. Had my first DC been back when the smoke was much worse, I'm not sure that I would have been able to return. Damned wussy lungs. I fully acknowledge that things have really improved for nonsmokers, a fact for which I am extremely grateful.

, but I really think that defcon needs to prohibit smoking in the speaking rooms themselves, no matter what the Riv's policy is on it. Nearly everyone can handle being without a cigarette for an hour. I'd even be happy to see the speaker(s) have an exception.

Perhaps it would be helpful to conduct a forum poll? Something like: should smoking be prohibited in Defcon spaces, and if so, to what degree, i.e. only in speaking rooms (except for the speaker himself/herself - very good point, shrdlu), or also in chillout/contest/vendor/etc rooms? I would be curious to find out how many people are for/against different possibilities. I wil try to post a poll. Hoping I'm not overstepping my bounds if I do so.

I believe that *most* people attending are not interested in the "community" aspect. I'm happy to see people that I see once or twice a year, at best, but trying to claim that the 5000+ attendees are a community seems to be an artifice that should be dropped.

I sincerely hope that you're wrong there. The unique sense of community is something I have always loved about Defcon. Some of that feeling was lost this year with the move from the AP, but I want to believe that it will be regained with the modifications that DT et al will be making in space usage and layout next year. The "community" issue is also why I don't think anyone would want to see segregated spaces for non-smokers vs. smokers.

Even if the smoking policy does not change next year, I am hoping that better signage and a more inviting outdoor chill-out area will encourage smokers to take it outside, thereby reducing the indoor haze.

If all else fails, I'm up for TheCotMan's gasmask idea. It's functional, and it makes a bold statement.

I am not a goon or organizer, I'm just some forum-jerk with a meaningless high postcount.

Yeah right, oh ye of the /dev/null-banning witty retorts.

[TheCotMan]

Re: Ideas for Defcon 15

I remember this as well. I'm a non-smoker, and would do my best to either sit in an isolated spot, or else try to pick an area that didn't seem inhabited by smokers.

I tried that too, as well as laying on the floor to get away from the cloud of smoke, but I'm not sure how much they helped.
As much as I might complain, I am an adult, and continued to visit Defcon, year after year knowing the risks involved with attending. For me, I see how bad it was and at this point, can tolerate the levels of smoke, so I'm not a supporter of a smoking ban, or keeping smoking allowed.

I believe that *most* people attending are not interested in the "community" aspect. I'm happy to see people that I see once or twice a year, at best, but trying to claim that the 5000+ attendees are a community seems to be an artifice that should be dropped. It's easy to make a smoking-free zone. Go back to the AP rules, and tell them to take it outside. Posting signs on the doors saying no smoking in the conference rooms is pretty easy.

I'm not sure I would call it a community anymore, but there is community in Defcon, in the forum of multiple communities.
The corporate-management-types of people tend to find each other, the Feds seem to do very well at spotting each other and hanging out with each other, forum people seem to have several groups that each meet, there are DCG communities, and there are Goon communities, and each goon-type seems to have its own community (security goons, information/speaking goons, etc.)
So, no, there is not one huge community, but a collection of communities.

These communites can be harmed by division and partitioning, such as smoking/non-smoking if separate rooms were used. Resteraunts have had smoking/non-smoking zones... perhaps one side of the room could be smoking, and the other side could be non-smoking? I'm not sure how effective that would be though....

I'd fight you to the wall on this one. I've watched you over the past few months, and I think you are doing great work, helping to glue the conceptual Defcon Forum into something workable.

Heh. It is kind of a joke. I really do prefer to support Defcon in the background, and not be so visible. I've helped people with contests and events with a few small things here and there, under the condition that my specific contributions be kept from the public. However, adding new content to the forums that *works* really requires community participation, not some dictatorial, "THIS IS HOW THINGS WILL BE! AND YOU WILL LIKE IT... OR ELSE." ... So, I must conceed background status in order to inform people of changes, encourage feedback for more changes, and take people's ideas and try to form them into something that most can benefit from.

I hope, that some day, we will have so many useful tools, features and goodies on the forums, that I will be able to step back into the shadows, and help from the background again-- perhaps maintaining what has been added.

There will come a time when I step aside and let a talented person take the role of primary Admin, while I shift to the #2 position, and support them and the other mods.

I had steeled myself for a barrage of “Fuck non-smoking whiners,” à la Chris. But maybe this is still to come...

Sure. That can still happen. I've learned not to push the "no-smoking" issues with family and friends, as it just makes things worse for them, and everyone else. I view it as my problem with the smoke, and when they smoke, I either excuse myself and come back later or tolerate it.

Perhaps it would be helpful to conduct a forum poll? Something like: should smoking be prohibited in Defcon spaces, and if so, to what degree, i.e. only in speaking rooms (except for the speaker himself/herself - very good point, shrdlu), or also in chillout/contest/vendor/etc rooms? I would be curious to find out how many people are for/against different possibilities. I wil try to post a poll. Hope that's okay.

I think polls can be fine, however, you will find most mods don't agree with me. Perhaps I have polled them too many times. ]:>

You can start such a thread, but expect people to post strong opinions about it, and when you add a poll, be sure to add humorous choices that have nothing to do with smoking, as it can make the polling entertaining.

If you make the results public, please state that in your opening post of the thread.

Yeah right, oh ye of the /dev/null-banning witty retorts.

If you think I am witty, you should check out many of the replies from Chris, skroo, Noid and Octalpus... these are great. I try to keep a thought running in the background: "Don't piss these people off!" (heh-heh)

Here is one of my favorite examples. (Let me know if it is not visible. It may be too old/expired for /dev/null listing.)

[signcarver]

Re: Ideas for Defcon 15

perhaps one side of the room could be smoking, and the other side could be non-smoking? I'm not sure how effective that would be though....

I was thinking the possibility of something like that but which side do you make smoking. I know there were a couple of things I attended (hacker jeopardy and at least one other time in that same room) where it was announced that there was no smoking in that room and to go into the hallways... I wasn't sure if it was a joke or not (in the case of jeopardy the announcement sounded like a joke and at least one of the speakers when she said it sounded like she wanted the room smoke free rather than it was a rule and I dont remember any no smoking signs being posted) but I did see a few people actually leave who just lit up but then a few others just lit up right after that. The problem is that if the hallways surrounding the rooms are smoking, any smoking at all in the room will probably linger and spread through the whole room.

Perhaps there could be a track/room that would be no smoking and posted as such. Leave it up to the presenters and see if they have a preference... many speakers probably would prefer a smoke free room while others would probably prefer to smoke while giving their presentation. I was thinking that a smoker should be able to last through an hour session or two without the smoke and most of the non-smokers probably could last an hour in the other smoked filled rooms.

Regardless, for the non-smokers, there should be a place to escape to... perhaps a cool zone misting away in the outside area near the dunking booth and a giant inflatable pool for us to use later than 7:00 and a section with table service serving some refreshing drinks, and grills to allow the toxic bbq to last throughout the con...

Personally I had no problem with the smoke or smoking... I felt the rooms were spacious enough for it not to be a problem.

[Chris]

Re: Ideas for Defcon 15

Interesting. I am probably the most militant Pro-Smoking advocate at DEF CON. I smoke nearly constantly while there. That said, even I think the speaker rooms should be non-smoking. (It should be noted that I have spoken at several DEF CONs and have never lit up while giving my presentation, so if I can do it anyone can) When I did the original Vendor Diagram this year I had intended to put the vendors that smoked on one side of the room and the vendors that didn't on the other side. Didn't work out due to a couple of last minute cancellations that I had to fill and some fucked up shit regarding the Fire Marshal, the hotel and some shit I am not getting into.
Hopefully I will be able to make that happen for next year, but unless DT tells me otherwise the Vendor Area will remain a smoke friendly zone.

Anyway...smoking. Let's be realistic. As it stands, you can smoke almost everywhere in Vegas (Fuckin' A I love Vegas). It is one of the last places in the country (Vegas and DEF CON) that hasn't totally pussified regarding smoking.

How do we accomodate the non-smokers (who I agree should be able to sit through a talk without breathing in half a pack) while maintaining the ability for smokers to enjoy pretty much the last two places on earth that you can smoke without whiny little bitches turning their noses up at you or making bullshit comments?

Seems pretty easy to me.

Talks--Non-smoking. Wait 50 minutes or go outside the room.
Common Areas--Smoking. Sorry, even the Food Court at the Riv allows smoking. I think it's ridiculous to expect us to make the common areas where food is served non-smoking.
Parties--Discretion of those throwing the party (that's just common sense)
CTF, Vendor Area, Contest Area--Smoking allowed. Too many smokers participating in these events.

Trust me when I say that prohibiting smoking ANYWHERE is a concession as far as I'm concerned. I think not only should smoking be allowed everywhere, but everyone in those everywhere should BE smoking...constantly. If you can't handle smoking you are probably a pussy anyway.

[Varjeal]

Re: Ideas for Defcon 15

Sorry to stray a bit from the current discussion, but since nOOb's to DEFCON were asked to add their $.02....here's mine....

Being new to DEFCON certainly presented some challenges:

1. Signage...a lot has been said earlier about this topic, so I'll just mention that whatever can be done to improve how/where people are directed would be a bonus.

2. Not knowing anyone by face...this of course rectified itself as the weekend wore on and people introduced themselves, which was mega cool. Thanks to all those who organized and looked after things as well.

3. Space. Not knowing what to expect for the LP village, and having learned a lot over that weekend, I'd certainly put in my vote for far more space (preferrable another skybox) for the Lockpicking village. (it was pretty cool to have a balcony to go veg on for a few minutes to cool off. With all the new folk (to picking that is) we could have easily had a weekend full of different speakers doing mini-talks on the subject, and there would be a definite benefit in having it seperate from the contest/breakout area. It would also be cool if the LPCON could occur a bit closer to the rest of the village so we wouldn't have to shut it down to go watch....that or have it televised in the skybox's which would also be pretty cool.

4. Talks: Not being a digital hacker like most of you are, I was suprised that Deviant or someone else didn't have a "track" or major presentation on basic/advanced lock picking. Marc's & Matts, as well as Eric's talk were excellent however.

Of course, since I've made all these points I'll also offer my services as well as those of LSI to help out in whatever we can do to make things better such as providing speakers, demos, prizes, etc.

[artistic_chaos]

Re: Ideas for Defcon 15

...and most of the non-smokers probably could last an hour in the other smoked filled rooms.

Not so much, unfortunately. Some people don't mind much, but some people are severely affected by it. For example, I can hold out for awhile as long as the smoke isn't being blown directly in my face, but my friend can barely tolorate being in the casino at all.

[converge]

Re: Ideas for Defcon 15

I am a non-smoker. No interest in smoking. No interest in stopping others, but witnessed the loss of my grandfather to lung cancer, abhor the strong stench, and otherwise just don't care to suck on a stick all day.. caffeine and calories are enough for my dependency list. Here's what I had to say:

Seriously .. with all of the things in Vegas that can kill me and considered .. I suspect second hand smoke is about 5mm below my nutsack on the scale of shrug. I can understand the theoretical argument for speaker rooms .. since they are closed and static, but they are so large that it really doesn't matter except to those that are pissy about seeing people light up inside a building for once. Dr., we need to some sand extracted from their woohoos stat.

Now.. to add some context to my flare; At one point in childhood, being near *any* form of smoke would cause me to have breathing issues.. I have grown out of this for the most part, but I'm still generally a little more sensitive than most. I did not have any issues in ANY of the places I went (and I even attended multiple talks this year, first time ever!). *shrug* I can understand the plight of those that cannot be around it; it does suck, but nothing about Defcon and smokers has changed since I started attending at DC10. I think the change between AP and Riviera is more minimal than many believe. The biggest contrast was seeing people light up indoors.. something that most folks aren't normalized to since the staunch bans over the past decade or so.

In theory, I'm in agreement with Chris. In actuallity I think this topic is overblown. In honesty, I don't really care because 1) I don't smoke, see above 2) I don't have a problem with other people smoking 3) I don't think I should dictate whether or not others do .. smokers are generally real considerate in all cases that may rub against this 4) I don't think a 'problem' existed.