Hacking Meeting at my house

[Thorn]

Re: Hacking Meeting at my house

Along with that, the basis would seem to be, do you have the right to know that you are being questioned/searched/giving up search and seizure protections to a LEO vs non-LEO? This might touch on Miranda rights and when a LEO is considered to be "questioning" a subject

No, there is no such "right to know that you are being questioned/searched/giving up search and seizure protections to a LEO".

The rights that you have are exactly what theprez98 said: You have a right to keep silent, and you have a lawyer present during questioning. You must be warned of those rights, but only under specific circumstances.

This touches on what I said in my previous post: The socalled "Miranda Warning" only has to be given under four circumstances that must be together:

• A person has to be a suspect.
• The questions must address the elements of the crime.
• The person making the questions must be a LEO or acting as an agent for the police.
• That person has to be in police custody.

Things that are excluded by that test:
Asking for identifying/demographic information such as name, age, address, etc.
Asking general investigatory questions prior to an arrest (e.g. "What happened here?")
Asking questions outside of police custody ("Custody" is usually within the confines of police station after the cops says "You are under arrest.")

If the questioning doesn't fit those criteria, then no "Miranda" is required. For example, potential suspects that are free to leave the police station during questioning do not require a "Miranda", nor do suspects where the police have witnessed the crime, and don't intend to ask about the crime.

Statements made under questioning when someone is not in custody, or aren't suspects for a crime (until the moment they say something implicating themselves) are excluded from "Miranda". Spontaneous statements to the police without questions are also excluded. e.g. Police roll up to a shooting, the victim's husband steps forward and states: "I shot the bitch, and I'm glad I did it!" Or stopped for speeding, and the cops ask "Why where you doing 75 in a 25 zone? Is there some emergency?" and the answer is "I just stabbed my husband and was trying to get away." Those statement are excluded.

Suspects talking amongst themselves and saying something that is overheard by the cops? Excluded. Talking to someone that the suspect thinks isn't a cop (the old "cell-mate confession" trick) is another exclusion, especially when the questions aren't pointed to the elements of the crime.

Statements that fall under the exclusions are admissible in court as evidence against the suspect.

[Nikita]

Re: Hacking Meeting at my house

seems rather silly, i'll admit... if it's true it makes me wonder why every call girl in the country doesn't merely have an opening -- and admittedly un-romantic -- ritual wherein they state plainly (perhaps in lawyer-prepared language) "are you currently working for or directly on the behalf or any law enforcement or government agency or are you here in any police capacity whatsoever?"

i've never heard a hooker do that, though.

(I am taken back at the thought of dear sweet gentlemanly deviant conversing with hooks. )

Ive watched a lot of bad tv myself and I've seen a few documentaries on hookers. Hookers in NY, Hawaii and such. Most HBO Specials take care of that watching a train wreck boredom I get from time to time. Anyway, when the hooker propositions a john in all cases she asks him if he is a cop (useless inquiry ) and to prove it she asks him to touch her indecently before they make a deal. The theory according to them is if he is a cop then he cant touch her where her bathing suit covers. Then she names her price.

I don't know if that applies only in certain cities, if make-believe or if it is policy. Similar to the one that the UCA can not consume drugs during a sting. ( assuming that still applies ) Cops can say pretty much anything they want to in order to nail your ass. Its the Defense's job to loophole out of it and the prosecutions job to loudly proclaim you are indeed an asshat no matter what. Personally I detest the I wouldn't have done it if i had known you were a cop excuse. Seriously, think about that. recockulas.

If you invite people into your home you don't know you are basically saying I am going to take all my personal belongings and sense of privacy and camp it on the front lawn. There you sit and you have a pretty fair chance that if you light up a joint, shoot some smack or have sex with minors your neighbor is gonna call the cops. Not to mention your new friends may or may not firmly believe you are having a yard sale and free is the currency.

I may be bitter as I have recently been stolen from after having company (neighbor) over that we met a few times and seemed trustworthy to have a few beers at home with. (obvious ganking) But regardless, no matter how much you may like a person or you think they are 1337 you can not make that your only deciding factor for taking the veil off your private affairs. Also, your guests may not be interested or want to be present to watch your "super-cyborg-pirate-ninja-monkey attack on Singapore servers", either as an accessory or a liability of PI. /rant

[TheCotMan]

Re: Hacking Meeting at my house

Opening scene: house where "hackers" have been invited to attend a party.

White Escalade pulls up across from the house. A guy looking like a cross between a Marine and someone from Ultimate Fighter wearing a goth-like outfit, and steel-toed door kicking boots arrives at the door.

*knock* *knock* (Door opens)
New Guy: (low raspy monotone) "I am here for the hacker party."
Person at the door: "Are you a hacker?"
New Guy: "I am a hacking vampire. I've hacked the, um, Gibson, and wear inline skates on the weekend. I've also got certs like MCSE. I can't come in unless you invite me."
Person: "Oh! You are leet! Come on in!"

Maybe LEO are like Hollywood vampires:

If you invite a LEO into your house, then they keep their magic powers of legally admissible evidence collection.
However, they can keep their magic powers without invitation if they have a magic talisman of protection from 'allegation of illegal search and seisure' known as "search warrant"

LEO are paid with tax money, and taxes are considered by some as the blood sucking government.

LEO also train new LEO, so are LEO are "made" from other LEO?

A wooden stake through the heart could kill a LEO. (So could silver bullets-- maybe they are werewolves too.)

What about some sort of implication using applied racial stereotypes associating "the mob" with Italians and Italians with Garlic-- the natural enemy of a vampire?
(Obviously, this doesn't work, since there are Italian Police, and not all "Mobsters" are Italians and there are some LEO that eat food with garlic and not all Italians or mobsters necessarily like garlic.)

Ok. Maybe LEO are not vampires. What about werewolves? :-)

[ecc]

Re: Hacking Meeting at my house

Here in in Israel a LEO doesn't even have to be on duty to arrest you for a crime. (e.g. A MP detective was on his way to the base via bus, the bus had a restroom break at a restaurant and the detective went in and saw a deserter (recognized him by his mugshot and name-tag) and arrested him).
Also LEOs have to identify them selfs only when detaining or arresting a person.
If you invite people to your house anything you do during that time can be used against you in Court, with the people you invited as witnesses.

[Thorn]

Re: Hacking Meeting at my house

There's no requirement to tell the truth to a suspect under any circumstances, or identify yourself as a LEO. The US Supreme Court cleared that years ago. If there are exceptions to that, they are localized to a given jurisdiction, but I've never heard of them.

If someone is stupid enough to leave something in plain sight, make statements that implicate themselves or others in a crime, make statements against self interest, or to invite unknown people into an area where there is illegal conduct, and one of the people is a LEO, it's just too bad. Real career criminals (whether hookers or things far worse), usually know this stuff at least as well as the police, and don't bother with such foolishness. The ones who believe it and try it are amateurs.

I'll even throw out another TV police myth: You don't have to have the so-called "Miranda Warning" at the time of arrest. In fact, most real cops and prosecutors consider it detrimental to doing at that point. Also, not everyone gets it, and it actually only has to be told to a suspect under very specific circumstances. There is a legal test that has to be met. If it isn't, then the cops are clear to avoid giving the warning. Most amateur criminals consider this to be a basis for a dismissal of charges, so much so that they say it regularly when arrested for things like DWI. Experienced LEOs just roll their eye and proceed with the booking. Really experienced LEOs let the arrestee yammer on and incriminate themselves.

[Tacitus]

Re: Hacking Meeting at my house

The general legal consensus seems to be: the police can say what they want, the key is that you have a right *not* to answer questions; and you have a right to have a lawyer present.

Along with that, the basis would seem to be, do you have the right to know that you are being questioned/searched/giving up search and seizure protections to a LEO vs non-LEO? This might touch on Miranda rights and when a LEO is considered to be "questioning" a subject

[theprez98]

Re: Hacking Meeting at my house

it was my understanding (and not just from the evidence of the tee vee box) that LEOs can (and routinely do) use all manner of deception, role play, and withholding of the truth when interacting with suspects -- and this is legal -- but pointed questions as to whether or not a given individual is law enforcement must be answered if criminal activity is being solicited (particularly this applies to drug deals and prostitution) otherwise evidence gained can be thrown out on an entrapment or coercion basis.

I'm sure Thorn will chime in and set us straight, but I believe the courts have generally given law enforcement wide latitude in these matters. If they *were* required to answer a pointed question truthfully, potential criminals would ask pointed questions.

Doing a little perusing I found cases where police were permitted to lie about evidence to have a suspect incriminate themselves (i.e., "we have your DNA at the scene of the crime").

The general legal consensus seems to be: the police can say what they want, the key is that you have a right *not* to answer questions; and you have a right to have a lawyer present.

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: Hacking Meeting at my house

An officer of the law does not have to identify himself as such to a suspected criminal, even if asked if he is an officer of the law.

so is it purely a hollywood and TV myth whenever you see the suspect or prostitute say something like, "i'll ask you plainly... are you a cop? because you have to tell me if you are."

it was my understanding (and not just from the evidence of the tee vee box) that LEOs can (and routinely do) use all manner of deception, role play, and withholding of the truth when interacting with suspects -- and this is legal -- but pointed questions as to whether or not a given individual is law enforcement must be answered if criminal activity is being solicited (particularly this applies to drug deals and prostitution) otherwise evidence gained can be thrown out on an entrapment or coercion basis.

seems rather silly, i'll admit... if it's true it makes me wonder why every call girl in the country doesn't merely have an opening -- and admittedly un-romantic -- ritual wherein they state plainly (perhaps in lawyer-prepared language) "are you currently working for or directly on the behalf or any law enforcement or government agency or are you here in any police capacity whatsoever?"

i've never heard a hooker do that, though.

[Floydr47]

Re: Hacking Meeting at my house

If you invite a federal employee in Law Enforcement or a police officer into your home, even if you don't know they are a law enforcement officer and they don't identify themself as such, can any observations made by them be admitted into evidence in court, or at least be used to support acquiring a search warrant?

That is an interesting question, TCM. I asked a friend of mine with the local sheriff's office and he assured me that undercover agents in our area use this tactic frequently in drug related cases. What the officer observes, if it is in plain sight, is admissable in court, (as well as any conversations that take place), and also may be used to obtain search warrants. An officer of the law does not have to identify himself as such to a suspected criminal, even if asked if he is an officer of the law. Officers are allowed to engage in "roleplay" in order to make arrests (i.e., "sting operations" for prostitution, drug enforcement, and the ever popular "hire the hitman who is an undercover cop"). An undercover officer does not even have to appear in court to give testamony in some jurisdictions, he/she can give testamony by affidavit, in order to protect the integrity of an on-going investigation or to protect the identity of the undercover officer. Be careful who you invite into your home if you engage in illegal activities because once you invite someone in then you have effectively given up your "right to privacy".

An excellent example of this is the current trend of police officers posing as young girls/boys in on-line chatrooms in order to catch child predators. What the predator believes to privleged communication, e-mails, phone calls, etc. become evidence in the case even though the "young girl/boy" does not really exist. The intent to commit the crime does.

[hackajar]

Re: Hacking Meeting at my house

There might be additional attention to this hacker meeting if it was clothes optional, or maybe not...

hack-her - hahahahaha

[erehwon]

Re: Hacking Meeting at my house

Having never attended a hacking meeting I am at a loss as to what is the proper attire. Will this be a casual meeting or will it be a black tie affair?

There might be additional attention to this hacker meeting if it was clothes optional, or maybe not...

[TheCotMan]

Re: Hacking Meeting at my house

If you invite a federal employee in Law Enforcement or a police officer into your home, even if you don't know they are a law enforcement officer and they don't identify themself as such, can any observations made by them be admitted into evidence in court, or at least be used to support acquiring a search warrant?

Whoops. I'm sorry about that. You don't need to answer that. I guess the above paragraph is not really on-topic here, but I'll leave my mistake here in this thread.

Have a great time at the meeting! ]:>

Oh yes. And to continue with what noid said:

"You have to fight, for your right, to..."

[Floydr47]

Re: Hacking Meeting at my house

Having never attended a hacking meeting I am at a loss as to what is the proper attire. Will this be a casual meeting or will it be a black tie affair? One more thing, will I need any special equipment such as my "Little Orphan Annie Secret Decoder Ring"? Before Noid bans me...Honest, I did a seach of the forum and a Google, I couldn't find the answer to my questions anywhere.

[noid]

Re: Hacking Meeting at my house

Kick It!!!

[hackajar]

Re: Hacking Meeting at my house

Will punch and pie be served?

I hope no bad people come <Insert ruff guitar riff here>