black badge protocol

[bigezy]

Re: black badge protocol

[QUOTE=Deviant Ollam;89180]
being a bit harsh, aren't you? the organizers were responding to the requests made by the majority of black badge holders... we wanted a shot at getting a DC15 super-kickass badge before they ran out. my understanding is that the system that was put in place wasn't mandatory... you would have been free, would you not, to just walk around with your old black badge instead of a current style one.


see... this is where your argument goes a bit off the rails for me. the kind of friends i hang with at defcon don't care whether i'm wearing my black badge, my blue badge, my red one, etc. why not just ask for contest winners to get a t-shirt that says "i am super-leet and pwned a bunch of people at a defcon long ago, aren't i something? i deserve free drinks and scenewhores should line up to service me."

QUOTE]

I was told when I checked in that I would need to either pay for a badge or give up my black badge. I had to make a decision to trust TW or pay the 100 bucks. Using the black badge was not an option presented to me.

On the other thing. Overall it didn't matter to me that much either, except for times like what happened to Bozilla. Mentant, and myself at DC 14. We were watching some folks participating in the wireless contest. And the guy who was competing told us "If you think you can do better why don't you compete" Bobzilla held up his black badge, and the guy turned his head down and walked away.

You can not have moments like that with your badge locked in the back.


I am a realist. If I want to drink I have money. As far as getting laid, I am middle aged fat and ugly, no black piece of plastic is going to help me overcome any of those handicaps.

[kallahar]

Re: black badge protocol

Maybe just a simple "claim ticket" would work. Get a bunch of tags, write pairs of numbers on them, #1 is attached to the badge, you keep #2. To retrieve the badge the two numbers have to match. Bad news if your chit gets stolen, or if someone forges one, but the odds of that are relatively low I think.

Next year I plan on putting a dog tag attached to my black badge that has all my contact info, just in case it gets left/misplaced/etc.

Kallahar

[LosT]

Re: black badge protocol

Why don't we just use a form of RFID...oh right...forget that...

LosT

[rabbi]

Re: black badge protocol

It's not just that I'm salty over missing out on getting an electronic badge (got there Friday morning. Would have been there Thursday but I injured my back in a pretty unpleasant fashion and spent most of Thursday immobile and waiting to see the Dr -- wait, maybe i am salty ;)

Dude, I'm sympathetic to the back problems thing -- that's why I wound up getting to DEFCON registration too late to get anything but a paper badge, despite having been in Las Vegas since the day before Black hat (my talked was on Day 1). However, if you've got all these great ideas for badge hacks, why couldn't you figure out a way to get a normal badge? Social engineering is always the easiest part of any hack.

I started with a paper badge, traded that one of the regular badges that had some burnt-out LEDs, traded that for a working badge, prototyped our hack on that, and then implemented the final version on a press badge that I managed to get despite not being press (nor seriously claiming to be. Favors were traded. No I don't want to talk about it.)

... and then my team won the badge hacking contest, having started with laminated paper badges.

Yes, it sucks that not everyone gets a cool badge -- but at $27 a pop, I can understand why DT doesn't want to end up with a few hundred of these things sitting in a box in his basement. My point is, though, that if you really want a good badge, and can't make it to register for whatever reason until they're gone, there's 6000+ people walking around with the badges you want. Find someone willing to swap with you. It's not that hard.

(Now, a really slick solution would be to find a circuit board maker who can fab them on the fly, or with a few hours lead-time, and willing to do so on-site. A pre-order of 7K badges, with small batches of a few hundred as supplies start to diminish, would solve the problem. Whether such an outfit exists, though, or if the equipment to do so is portable enough, I am not sure.)

[TechnoWeenie]

Re: black badge protocol

While I would agree with you that the process "worked" from your perspective. I disagree that this process should remain permanent. For the following reason: I busted my ass to get the black badge that I have, and during the one weekend that having this badge would really mean something. I have to surrender it to get into Defcon. What is the point? Shouldn't previous black badge winners be honored? If this werent true, why do we get in free for life?

I know that Defcon has to do something to keep from people using the badge over and over to get friends in. But the process that was used this year was totally a pile of steaming dog shit.

I had to give my real name and I had to show ID in order to get my badge back. What is the point of that? Defcon is supposed to be an anonymous conference. But, the people that have black badges need to leave thier real names at the door if they want to get in for free.

And the second shitty thing about this is that the one weekend where I can hang out with poeple that understand what a black badge means, I get shafted again.

Sure this is a great way for you to keep people in line. And it is probably perfect for you TW. It sucks for the black badge holder.

When you are making badges next year, how about making a special badge for past contest winners?

And a general FUCK YOU to defcon for making me give up my real name. I got a chance to see other peoples real names when you wrote mine on the list. I would think the liability of a list like that getting out would be extreme.

uh.. ok, remind me next year when you come to REG.

As for names.. I took First name Last initial, not associated with handles\nicks.. just numbers so I was giving back the same badge given. That so bad? You got to get the regular human badge this year, previous years.. nothing. So is that so bad? Yes it is not the BEST way to do this... and I can and will work on making it better. Maybe I am still tired and cranky from working so hard to insure everyone enjoyed Defcon... that a general "fuck you" to defcon for this.. seems childish.

We can discuss this more next year at registration...

TW

[russ]

Re: black badge protocol

Hang in there, TW. I think Reg worked like a charm this year.

uh.. ok, remind me next year when you come to REG.

As for names.. I took First name Last initial, not associated with handles\nicks.. just numbers so I was giving back the same badge given. That so bad? You got to get the regular human badge this year, previous years.. nothing. So is that so bad? Yes it is not the BEST way to do this... and I can and will work on making it better. Maybe I am still tired and cranky from working so hard to insure everyone enjoyed Defcon... that a general "fuck you" to defcon for this.. seems childish.

We can discuss this more next year at registration...

TW

[HighWiz]

Re: black badge protocol

Blah, don't go to a claim ticket system. From what I saw, the system worked fine this year. I saw people turn their black badges in and pick them up.

And really, who the fuck cares if you can walk around with your black badge or not? I have mine, and don't feel the need to flaunt that shit like I'm an uber-leet haxor dude (even though the badge says it). Seriously, get over the fucking elitism of it all. The older I get the more I realize that it's all just stupid bullshit. And wow Bigezy, you were able to make a guy hang his head in shame, I guess that makes you feel manly or something, do you want a cookie?

I got an idea, if you don't want your name on "a list", then how bout you just pony up the money for DefCon. Honestly, it's such a small price to pay for a chance to hangout with your friends and have fun.

I brought my black badge this year, and it remained in the room the entire Con. I decided that paying 100 bucks wasn't too great a burden for all the enjoyment I would receive.

I guess at the end of the day, much of this boils down to entitlement. With that Black Badge you are entitled to free entry to con if you so choose. However, you're not entitled to decide the method. It's a luxury if TW or DT are willing to listen to your idea's of doing things differently.

I can be a real bitch, but god damn, some of you fuckers could give me a run for my money with your whining.

I have a great idea, maybe DT should just go back on the whole black badge thing and invalidate them all for free entrance to con. Then stop giving out black badges... People will still compete in contests, And those who actually want to goto defcon will pay. Sure there would be a lot of bitching at first, a few would stamp there feet like children and swear off defcon, but maybe it would solve the problem of entitlement. I'm sure it would make TW and Russr's job easier in not having to deal with black badges.

~ HighWiz

[bloofar]

Re: black badge protocol

I started with a paper badge, traded that one of the regular badges that had some burnt-out LEDs, traded that for a working badge, prototyped our hack on that, and then implemented the final version on a press badge that I managed to get despite not being press (nor seriously claiming to be. Favors were traded. No I don't want to talk about it.)

... and then my team won the badge hacking contest, having started with laminated paper badges.

Actually I came pretty close to getting one from somebody else, just didn't work out this year. But since I ended up doing other stuff it turned into a 'screw it' kinda thing.

Yes, it sucks that not everyone gets a cool badge -- but at $27 a pop, I can understand why DT doesn't want to end up with a few hundred of these things sitting in a box in his basement. My point is, though, that if you really want a good badge, and can't make it to register for whatever reason until they're gone, there's 6000+ people walking around with the badges you want. Find someone willing to swap with you. It's not that hard.

They only cost $27 ea? Then I'm really not sympathetic. Every one sold covers the cost of 3 badges (yes yes I know there's a lot of other costs at DC, but we're just talking about the badges here). At some point the cost of running DC has been covered (one has to assume it's significantly less than the number of electronic badges made) and at that point its profit / eff donation / whatever. In the black, let's say.

Even *if* there are a surplus of badges for admission, I can guarantee that the rest would have gotten sold on site. Seriously, many people would have bought a second or third badge (even if they sold for $50 to people who already had them, it's still making a profit). Auction the extras off to raise funds for EFF. Whatever.

In years past, how many extra badges were there, and what happened to them?

the electronic ones are even more special. A static, plastic badge, cool as it may be, has nothing on a mini scrolling LED sign.

If kingpin keeps designing the badges (which I truly hope he does) then there will never be a problem selling them.

(Now, a really slick solution would be to find a circuit board maker who can fab them on the fly, or with a few hours lead-time, and willing to do so on-site. A pre-order of 7K badges, with small batches of a few hundred as supplies start to diminish, would solve the problem. Whether such an outfit exists, though, or if the equipment to do so is portable enough, I am not sure.)

'Portable' is a funny word, esp in the context of a con.. people bring a lot of weird shit that people wouldn't generally consider portable. You could do it if you had a large truck and a forklift.

It all depends on how the boards are manufactured. The badges this year (from what I know; correct me if I'm wrong) are just 2 sided with SMC and vias. There are a number of ways to assemble such boards. The simplest method I know of would be:

1. Stamp / mill the boards in the shape you want, and cut out the species at the bottom.
2. Drill holes for vias
3. Punch vias into place
4. Secure board to table with clamps, line up template transparency
5. Squeegy conductive paste for circuit traces through transparency
6. Place and tack smc components
7. Run through reflow oven
8. Fix any errors by hand

There's a lot of different methods the boards could be made with. The boards at the con were definitely etched, but the squeegy method can work too. A reflow oven is typically a fairly large thing (the kind for continuous production would be 10+ feet long) but I've done it in a toaster oven (which obviously wouldn't keep up with the production numbers that would be required). However there are fridge-sized and tabletop ovens that wouldn't be continuous flow but would have enough space to bake a few dozen simultaneously.

Summary: It would be possible. They'd need a lot of space (couple of vendor spaces would do it) but it would be fantastic advertising for their company.

[shrdlu]

Re: black badge protocol

Okay, I preface this with the important info that I have the crud mentioned in other threads (and it's making me more cranky than per usual).

They only cost $27 ea? Then I'm really not sympathetic. Every one sold covers the cost of 3 badges (yes yes I know there's a lot of other costs at DC, but we're just talking about the badges here). At some point the cost of running DC has been covered (one has to assume it's significantly less than the number of electronic badges made) and at that point its profit / eff donation / whatever. In the black, let's say.

Well, now, let me see. You'd like DT to assume the very high cost of INSURANCE, which certain little wankers guarantee he'll need, every year, not to mention the extra security staff at the hotel, and you'd really like to make sure that speakers don't get paid, or comp'd... I could go on, but I'll stop here.

If you want a cool badge, SHOW UP ON TIME. Get a friend to buy yours. Don't have a friend? Can't get there on time? Don't come. If you still show up, kwitcher bitchin. Clearly you haven't the faintest idea of how defcon's run, or what it takes to put on a show that size. I have a black badge, and I still paid for the other one. I figure it's a contribution towards the really excellent talks that show up at defcon, and nowhere else, or towards making sure that staff are taken care of.

Sure, DT's made his money on Blackhat, but that doesn't mean that defcon should become his private charity. Hey, look at it this way: You show up late, you wear the badge they give you, and you're GRATEFUL.

On that note, kudos to the staff for their handling of those who had a black badge, and still wanted a human one. Excellent method, and I think commendations are in order. TW, take a bow. Good work.

Russ can take a bow too, if he likes.

[cereal76]

Re: black badge protocol

Now that the thread has come pretty much full circle, what's the protocol when LV Metro confiscates your black badge, and the officer doesn't check it into evidence so you can get it back? Any chance of getting another one, or is that person doomed to pay for a badge every year (assuming they're allowed back into the Riv)?

[bloofar]

Re: black badge protocol

Okay, I preface this with the important info that I have the crud mentioned in other threads (and it's making me more cranky than per usual).

I'm in the same boat. I was on hour 28 of being awake when I wrote the first post, but I still stand by it :)

Well, now, let me see. You'd like DT to assume the very high cost of INSURANCE, which certain little wankers guarantee he'll need, every year, not to mention the extra security staff at the hotel, and you'd really like to make sure that speakers don't get paid, or comp'd... I could go on, but I'll stop here.

I'm the first to admit I have no idea how the financials work for DC. But what I said was that the the time all 6800 or whatever badges have been sold, are the numbers not in the black? I can only assume that when the projected number of people show up, the con is running at LEAST at break even point, if not at a profit. Or are you trying to say that insurance costs are based on the number of badges printed, and not the number of people who show up? Same with security? Does that mean that these costs suddenly went up when the cardboard/paper badges were sent to the printer?

If you want a cool badge, SHOW UP ON TIME. Get a friend to buy yours. Don't have a friend? Can't get there on time? Don't come. If you still show up, kwitcher bitchin. Clearly you haven't the faintest idea of how defcon's run, or what it takes to put on a show that size. I have a black badge, and I still paid for the other one. I figure it's a contribution towards the really excellent talks that show up at defcon, and nowhere else, or towards making sure that staff are taken care of.

Hey, I said I was salty, not in bitch mode. I planned on being there on time, even got there 2 days early. But I didn't plan on sitting in the emergency room all day Thursday waiting to talk to the dr.

Sure, DT's made his money on Blackhat, but that doesn't mean that defcon should become his private charity. Hey, look at it this way: You show up late, you wear the badge they give you, and you're GRATEFUL.

Never said it should be a charity. I suggested that surplus profit from any extra badges be donated to EFF or whatever. Seriously, had there been an extra 100 badges this year, do you think there would have been a problem selling them off?

On that note, kudos to the staff for their handling of those who had a black badge, and still wanted a human one. Excellent method, and I think commendations are in order. TW, take a bow. Good work.

Russ can take a bow too, if he likes.

Kudos to the entire staff. This con ran very smoothly from what I saw. Personally I'm not a fan of the riv nor some of the directions DC as a whole seems to be heading, but administratively it was definitely well done this year. The guys I dealt with this year (agent x, noid) did a great job.

[TheCotMan]

Re: black badge protocol

Let me pull out the history book on this....

Some Black Badge Holders: "*Complaint* I have a black badge, and every year, I get in for free, but I don't get to take home a free badge for the latest convention I attended."

TW and people at Defcon try to find a solution to let people take home their original black badge and take home a badge for the new conference they just attended, but does not lead to re-use of the same black badge, over-and-over to "hack" the reg desk for tons of free badges.

Now we have a new complaint: "*Complaint* I have a black badge, but don't get to have it and my free badge at the same time."

Right. Ok then. Perhaps placing a burden to provide suggestions on those complaining might help.

Problems outlined:
1) People with black badges want to be able to have their black badge and a new badge for free.

a) I see no way for this to happen, such that a person can have both, at the same time, during defcon, and not leave a huge gaping hole for hacking the reg system.

b) A person could be given a choice: free entrance and possession of their black badge during con at the cost of not getting a new badge, but this complicates things for the people that "guard" entrance to the con-space by limiting access to only those with defcon badges. Memorizing the look of the present year's badge plus over 10 black badges from previous years creates problems-- especially as more years pass, and more black badges come into being.

c) Badges could be reserved until the end of the con so black badge holders can claim them at the end: again this is a risk for hacking the reg system to get lots of free badges, *and* creates problems with knowing how many to reserve.

I am sure there are even more problems with this that I have not considered, but that is because I don't work reg. Instead of just complaining about the problem, see if you can find a solution to all of the problems outlined above, and then offer constructive criticism to provide a solution that everyone an enjoy.

The way I see it, when people don't provide constructive criticism to help suggest solutions to problems that work to solve the known problems, they really don't want to see a solution so much as they want to complain.

So far, the solution used by TW this year seems to be the only one that solves *most* of the problems. I don't see a way to solve all of the problems, but I have not thought about this very much.

At USENIX or other conferences, they sometimes have stickers people can place on badges, or inserts to include on their badge to specify speaker, vendor, X-Year-Veteran and more. However, stickers and inserts can also be hacked if the black badge is not surrendered during the con.

Anyone have suggestions to solve all of the above problems that they want to provide? the stage is open, the mic is on, and the spotlight is ready.

[bloofar]

Re: black badge protocol

What about having some kind of a punch that makes a mark on the badge? When the bb holders pick up a human badge for that year, the bb gets permanently marked in some way (which would not detract from the overall beauty of the badge) so that they can't DoS the reg line.

At the reefer rumble I attended one year, as you were given each sample they cut a corner of your badge in a specific manner.
er i mean.. s/reefer rumble/young republican; s/sample/live puppy for eating/;

Not that I'm suggesting that we cut off corners of black badges.

[TheCotMan]

Re: black badge protocol

What about having some kind of a punch that makes a mark on the badge? When the bb holders pick up a human badge for that year, the bb gets permanently marked in some way (which would not detract from the overall beauty of the badge) so that they can't DoS the reg line.

That might be an option for people that elect to have their badge defaced each year, but we'd need a really interesting punch-- especially for the Defcon X badges, and such a punch for the Defcon 9 badges might produce a leaky badge. (if done in the wrong place. ;-)

If used, we might have a new batch of people complaining next year about their badges being ruined. Any other suggestions?

[bigezy]

Re: black badge protocol

Let me pull out the history book on this....

Some Black Badge Holders: "*Complaint* I have a black badge, and every year, I get in for free, but I don't get to take home a free badge for the latest convention I attended."

TW and people at Defcon try to find a solution to let people take home their original black badge and take home a badge for the new conference they just attended, but does not lead to re-use of the same black badge, over-and-over to "hack" the reg desk for tons of free badges.

Now we have a new complaint: "*Complaint* I have a black badge, but don't get to have it and my free badge at the same time."

Right. Ok then. Perhaps placing a burden to provide suggestions on those complaining might help.

Problems outlined:
1) People with black badges want to be able to have their black badge and a new badge for free.

a) I see no way for this to happen, such that a person can have both, at the same time, during defcon, and not leave a huge gaping hole for hacking the reg system.

b) A person could be given a choice: free entrance and possession of their black badge during con at the cost of not getting a new badge, but this complicates things for the people that "guard" entrance to the con-space by limiting access to only those with defcon badges. Memorizing the look of the present year's badge plus over 10 black badges from previous years creates problems-- especially as more years pass, and more black badges come into being.

c) Badges could be reserved until the end of the con so black badge holders can claim them at the end: again this is a risk for hacking the reg system to get lots of free badges, *and* creates problems with knowing how many to reserve.

I am sure there are even more problems with this that I have not considered, but that is because I don't work reg. Instead of just complaining about the problem, see if you can find a solution to all of the problems outlined above, and then offer constructive criticism to provide a solution that everyone an enjoy.

The way I see it, when people don't provide constructive criticism to help suggest solutions to problems that work to solve the known problems, they really don't want to see a solution so much as they want to complain.

So far, the solution used by TW this year seems to be the only one that solves *most* of the problems. I don't see a way to solve all of the problems, but I have not thought about this very much.

[snip]

Anyone have suggestions to solve all of the above problems that they want to provide? the stage is open, the mic is on, and the spotlight is ready.

A first thought. I am still leary of a list of real names that indicate these people have black badges. Overall the idea of surrendering the badge seems to provide TW with the best way to ensure that only those that earned it get in for free.

Surrendering the badge for a specially made badge that shows the attendee as a black badge holder would solve a lot of the problem. Through the process created this year, TW should have an idea about how many of these badges would need to be made up. (Adding for the previous years winners)

The privacy of the badge holders identity will need to be addressed. Perhaps a challenge token (a torn in half dollar bill or the like) could serve as a unique identifier for the black badge holder.


How does that sound?