Community Values, Split From [Memorable Quotes?]

[Deviant Ollam]

Pool 2... still haunts my dreams.

heh, see... i don't totally understand this reaction. i'm quite the fan of people cutting loose and just living with severely reduced boundaries and inhibitions once in a while. defcon is a pretty perfect place for that, particularly for folks whose lives are stuffy and stultified. while i suspect that i wouldn't be very pleased if any of my girlfriends or people about whom i care deeply were the subject of a multiple-digit-pounding, i think that anyone's choice to do so (and to thus bring a little more casual sex, nakedness, and general debauchery to a public forum) is pretty alright.

[Voltage Spike]

Re: Memorable Quotes?

i'm quite the fan of people cutting loose and just living with severely reduced boundaries and inhibitions once in a while.

I totally agree with you, but, unfortunately, this country is still really sensitive about issues of sex and, by relation, nudity. The Defcon community is more free than most, but it is difficult to break that stigma (only minor pun intended). The end result is that people want to watch (witness the number of people that showed up) and want to talk about the event (notice how often the topic is referenced), but those same people feel obligated to mention it with disgust so that they can't be seen as supported something so "low". Plus, it's somehow better for one's image to pan another's actions than to praise them.

Now there are people here who, for their own reasons, are against such activities. I certainly have no problem with their choices, but I am thankful that those people don't turn their disapproval into negativity.

There are also people here who are upset with the specific girl in question, but I'm not addressing them since they generally don't enter the conversation either.

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: Memorable Quotes?

The end result is that people... talk about the event (notice how often the topic is referenced), but those same people feel obligated to mention it with disgust so that they can't be seen as supported something so "low".

that's the part that i sometimes have trouble with... people who reference acts of unbridled release of inhibitions in the context only of criticizing them. i take an almost totally unequivocal stand in favor of anyone's right to act however they wish in a consensual fashion, whether behind closed doors or by the poolside. (after all, defcon isn't an elementary school playground. what may not be tolerable in complete "public" is more of a gray area for me here at con)

Now there are people here who, for their own reasons, are against such activities... I am thankful that those people don't turn their disapproval into negativity.

i guess that's where you and i differ a little bit, since i think that there is a subtle "negativity" that definitely pervades some people's comments. if the repeated "ew, yuck, what a whore" factor gets hammered enough times, then eventually it can discourage people from acting with total licentiousness... something that i find healthy in a city like vegas.

my advice to people in general: don't like the look of a loose chick's highly-trafficked vag? don't stick anything of yours in there. don't like the angle of the dangle on some half-naked guy's shaft? don't swallow it or let him slam it into one of your holes. beyond that, there's little that should concern folks, the way i see things. i wish folks would care less, essentially, about what other consenting adults do. DefCon is no place for Gladys Kravitz.

[Chris]

Re: Memorable Quotes?

DefCon is no place for Gladys Kravitz.

Big points for the Gladys KRavitz reference. I think that even if people disagreed with you before they should now be swayed. In my opinion if you can reference bad 70's (or in this case 60's into 70's) TV then your argument is significantly bolstered.

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: Memorable Quotes?

In my opinion if you can reference bad 70's (or in this case 60's into 70's) TV then your argument is significantly bolstered.

thanks for the vote of support. perhaps i'll work harder and come up with ways to sprinkle my posts with references to jethro clampett, buddy sorrell, uncle martin, and arnold the pig.

[Voltage Spike]

Re: Memorable Quotes?

i guess that's where you and i differ a little bit, since i think that there is a subtle "negativity" that definitely pervades some people's comments.

I think you missed my point. I was attempting to state that those who truly disagree with such acts have kept blissfully silent. Many of those that are intrigued by licentious behavior continually bring up the topic, albeit in negative tones (possibly to "save face" with the general public).

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: Memorable Quotes?

I think you missed my point. I was attempting to state that those who truly disagree with such acts have kept blissfully silent. Many of those that are intrigued by licentious behavior continually bring up the topic, albeit in negative tones (possibly to "save face" with the general public).

ah, i understand. i'm thankful for said blissful silence, since i think i'd really get aggravated about folks who genuinely disagree with loose sex and feel the need to moralize about the evils of it.

[Chris]

Re: Memorable Quotes?

I think you missed my point. I was attempting to state that those who truly disagree with such acts have kept blissfully silent.

I tend to disagree. There seem to be two things in this supposedly accepting community that are the constant targets of scorn. Girls that like to fuck and religion.

Let's look at each. Girls that like to fuck. I am a fan of their work. I don't understand the derision. The only issue I see with a girl behaving the way Pool 2 Girl did is that you have to question whether or not alcohol and/or drugs had impaired her judgement to the point that she wasn't fully in control of her actions. Not making excuses. I have certainly done and said things while inebriated that I wish I hadn't. That said, I accept that I made the choice to drink and therefore accept what I have done afterwards. I digress though. My main point is that I really don't understand how a supposedly accepting community continually looks down on someone doing what they want, when they want...be it public or not.

The other is religion. I am constantly amazed by people that are so accepting of every so called alternative lifestyle but refuse to accept people that both believe in a God and live in a way that is in accordance with those beliefs. Now...I am treading very close to breaking my own 'no religion' rule on here, but I get very discouraged with this attitude. I remember the first year that I let the Jesus.net folks have a table in the Vendor area there was so much fear of them that I actually had to contact them back and revoke their table....because God forbid they wanted to GIVE AWAY information on something not everyone agreed with. I fought VERY hard to get them in the next year and was successful. For two years they got to have a Vendor table...and guess what. No one gave a shit. They gave out info. They talked to people. To my knowledge there were no crucifixions.

Anyway....I will let this conversation continue for a bit as long as it doesn't turn into a COMPLETE politics/religion offshoot so tread lightly and speak intelligently.

[HighWiz]

Re: Memorable Quotes?

I tend to disagree. There seem to be two things in this supposedly accepting community that are the constant targets of scorn. Girls that like to fuck and religion.

Let's look at each. Girls that like to fuck. I am a fan of their work. I don't understand the derision. The only issue I see with a girl behaving the way Pool 2 Girl did is that you have to question whether or not alcohol and/or drugs had impaired her judgement to the point that she wasn't fully in control of her actions. Not making excuses. I have certainly done and said things while inebriated that I wish I hadn't. That said, I accept that I made the choice to drink and therefore accept what I have done afterwards. I digress though. My main point is that I really don't understand how a supposedly accepting community continually looks down on someone doing what they want, when they want...be it public or not.

The other is religion. I am constantly amazed by people that are so accepting of every so called alternative lifestyle but refuse to accept people that both believe in a God and live in a way that is in accordance with those beliefs. Now...I am treading very close to breaking my own 'no religion' rule on here, but I get very discouraged with this attitude. I remember the first year that I let the Jesus.net folks have a table in the Vendor area there was so much fear of them that I actually had to contact them back and revoke their table....because God forbid they wanted to GIVE AWAY information on something not everyone agreed with. I fought VERY hard to get them in the next year and was successful. For two years they got to have a Vendor table...and guess what. No one gave a shit. They gave out info. They talked to people. To my knowledge there were no crucifixions.

Anyway....I will let this conversation continue for a bit as long as it doesn't turn into a COMPLETE politics/religion offshoot so tread lightly and speak intelligently.

I'm going to disagree with you here Chris. I'm surprised that you think people are so un-accepting of peoples religions. More often than not I find people in the "community" pretty cool with it. Now they may not like Religion XYZ but we're not talking about agreeing with certain religions we're just discussing the acceptance of other points of view.

I can see how some people would have a problem with a table in the vendor area, since at the that point we're deviating from acceptance of another religion and we're getting into the realm of whether we believe they should be pimping they're faith. I'm a Christian, that's who I am and what I believe in. However I don't believe it's "Cool" to go out and try to convert people. Maybe we have different points of view and experiences on people trying to "convert" us, but I think you may need to take a step back and actually look at it from the non-faithful/unconverted POV. There's also the purist standpoint of DefCon remaining secular. I'd venture to guess some people feel Religion should stay out of DefCon... If it's too controversial for the forums, why should it be any less controversial at the Con itself?

[Chris]

Re: Memorable Quotes?

I'm going to disagree with you here Chris. I'm surprised that you think people are so un-accepting of peoples religions. More often than not I find people in the "community" pretty cool with it. Now they may not like Religion XYZ but we're not talking about agreeing with certain religions we're just discussing the acceptance of other points of view.

I can see how some people would have a problem with a table in the vendor area, since at the that point we're deviating from acceptance of another religion and we're getting into the realm of whether we believe they should be pimping they're faith. I'm a Christian, that's who I am and what I believe in. However I don't believe it's "Cool" to go out and try to convert people. Maybe we have different points of view and experiences on people trying to "convert" us, but I think you may need to take a step back and actually look at it from the non-faithful/unconverted POV. There's also the purist standpoint of DefCon remaining secular. I'd venture to guess some people feel Religion should stay out of DefCon... If it's too controversial for the forums, why should it be any less controversial at the Con itself?

I would agree with you if you were right. But since you aren't, I won't.

[HighWiz]

Re: Memorable Quotes?

I would agree with you if you were right. But since you aren't, I won't.

Hey, that's exactly the response that people get from those who are trying to convert them. Congrats!

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: Memorable Quotes?

since i hardly if ever miss an opportunity to speak my mind when a thread dances close to the politics and religion realm, i certainly won't sit idly now.

with religion, as with all matters concerning personal belief, choice, and taste, i think our community (like any enclave that is populated primarily by very passionate, intelligent, and self-reliant peoples) tends to draw a very invisible yet quite distinct line. each person has his or her own limit on how much they tend to tolerate differing views silently, and while this limit varies from person to person, in many ways it boils down to what i like to call "preaching versus proselytizing"

this can be as true for topics of religion as it can be for distro wars, vi/emacs fights, protocol use, etc etc etc. there is a very simple example i use when talking to religious people about the divide between preaching/testifying/witnessing and proselytizing/evangelizing/converting...

preaching - telling me about how wonderfully your faith and beliefs work for you
proselytizing - telling me about how wonderfully your faith and beliefs would work for me

preaching, in addition to being totally harmless, is free speech of the purest form and therefore something i defend with vigor. proselytizing, on the other hand, can border on harassment (or, to use HighWiz's words... "pimping") if done in certain ways and that is what crosses a line for many folks, i believe.

if something is free speech you can tune it out and it's not hurting anyone. if something is being repeatedly forced upon others it is almost harassment (i won't, however, get into my feelings about systems of belief being forced upon children or the mentally befuddled and how that can equate to near-abuse) and gets people rightly upset.

i've never seen any of the Christian hackers at any cons where they make a prominent appearance in category #2. all were very polite, quiet, and let people approach them as opposed to walking up to folks while holding bibles and reading the liturgy to anyone they saw.

[Xodia]

Re: Memorable Quotes?

heh, see... i don't totally understand this reaction. i'm quite the fan of people cutting loose and just living with severely reduced boundaries and inhibitions once in a while. defcon is a pretty perfect place for that, particularly for folks whose lives are stuffy and stultified. while i suspect that i wouldn't be very pleased if any of my girlfriends or people about whom i care deeply were the subject of a multiple-digit-pounding, i think that anyone's choice to do so (and to thus bring a little more casual sex, nakedness, and general debauchery to a public forum) is pretty alright.

I totally agree with that, but there are some people who just shouldn't be getting naked/probed in public. Pool 2 girl was one of those people.

[Schuyler]

Re: Memorable Quotes?

i've never seen any of the Christian hackers at any cons where they make a prominent appearance in category #2. all were very polite, quiet, and let people approach them as opposed to walking up to folks while holding bibles and reading the liturgy to anyone they saw.

And isn't that the point of allowing a group a vendor booth? It allows people to walk up to them?

[renderman]

Re: Memorable Quotes?

How about everyone just worship at the Church of WiFi and be done with any debate over religion?