Personal Digital Signatures

[xor]

Should people be made to have a Personal Digital Signature to conduct business on the net of the future? Business being e-mail and all forms of commerce.

xor

[shrdlu]

Re: Personal Digital Signatures

Should people be made to have a Personal Digital Signature to conduct business on the net of the future? Business being e-mail and all forms of commerce.

You need a lot more options to your poll.

Where's the option that says I don't need one? Your anonymity option is far more extreme than need be. The poll has rather the feel of the old joke about "when did you quit beating your wife?"

I don't think personal digital signatures should be required, and I will remind you that the average tech ability for people who are trying to conduct such business will be simply prohibitive in the adoption of this practice. Besides, who wants to put up with the nuisance and bureaucracy such notions will bring (and yes, yes it will)? Who decides which signatures are valid? Isn't PKI enough of a quagmire?

[xor]

Re: Personal Digital Signatures

You need a lot more options to your poll.

Where's the option that says I don't need one? Your anonymity option is far more extreme than need be. The poll has rather the feel of the old joke about "when did you quit beating your wife?"

I don't think personal digital signatures should be required, and I will remind you that the average tech ability for people who are trying to conduct such business will be simply prohibitive in the adoption of this practice. Besides, who wants to put up with the nuisance and bureaucracy such notions will bring (and yes, yes it will)? Who decides which signatures are valid? Isn't PKI enough of a quagmire?

So what you are saying is that you are for the status quo, it works don't fix it? But doesn't credit card, and account number information then become in essence our digital signature; proof of who we are? Doesn't there need to be something that doesn't involve money.

Personally, I like the anonymity. I think that's one of the reasons why the web has such appeal. But the days of the wild west which I still believe we are in to some extent will need to end some day. What will the web look like then? Will we have a digital signature tied to us at birth like a SSN?

Do you think that implementing IPV6 would facilitate a digital signature for each person? Your child getting a MAC address at birth. I know it's creepy to think about but aren't we really all ready on this path. To really make a digital world a reality doesn't something like this have to come to fruition.

How deep will the rabbit hole go?

xor

Just in case you were wondering IPV6 has 340,282,366,920,938,463,463,374,607,431,768,211,45 6 addresses. More than enough for every person and piece of equipment for a very long time.

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: Personal Digital Signatures

the days of the wild west which I still believe we are in to some extent will need to end some day

why?



(please ignore these words. they are here because the forums felt my beautifully succinct and to the point response was too short.)

[Thorn]

Re: Personal Digital Signatures

Doesn't there need to be something that doesn't involve money.

Why?

Actually, I'd be happier if we could come up with anonymous money transactions for the 'net. Stephenson's digital cash comes to mind.

Will we have a digital signature tied to us at birth like a SSN?
...

Do you think that implementing IPV6 would facilitate a digital signature for each person? Your child getting a MAC address at birth.

That's my fear.

Just in case you were wondering IPV6 has 340,282,366,920,938,463,463,374,607,431,768,211,45 6 addresses. More than enough for every person and piece of equipment for a very long time.

<shrug> Maybe. Every time I hear a phrase about "more than enough for the foreseeable future", I remember that in the 1950's IBM predicted a total of 4 mainframes would be sufficient for the whole world's computing needs well into the 21st Century. Oh, and the current IP schema was supposed to last for a long time, too. Remember also that the German's WWII Enigma code was supposed to be unbreakable for millions of years.

The point is that many long term predictions fall remarkably short, and I suspect that IPV6 will too. Sure, there may be 3E38 potential devices, but I'd bet that a number of things we can't even conceive of having net connectivity right now will be connected in the future, not to mention devices that haven't even been invented yet.

So when it's claimed that IPV6 is so vast, I would say to you that something will fill the void. It may be every small appliance has an IP (like the smart home people have suggested), or that every new toy has an IP, or something we haven't even thought of yet, but something will fill that void.

[xor]

Re: Personal Digital Signatures

When you are born before you even have a name you have an RFID chip embedded in your wrist or hand; instant digital citizen. I was was trying to make Renderman & Audit happy. :)

xor

[xor]

Re: Personal Digital Signatures

why?

Because :)

xor

[xor]

Re: Personal Digital Signatures

Nah just kidding. I like to think things all the way though. Take them to one possible end if not many ends to see where they lead. Mainly for the purpose of pontification, discussion, mental masturbation; whatever term you like. To see what people think. I just think we are on this road, where it will lead only time will tell. I don't think we will see it, maybe not even our children, but our children's children will be raised in a very different world where this stuff maybe be more acceptable. It only takes one watershed incident in history to make things change.

For example the Ms Jackson's "Wardrobe Malfunction" changed public TV for the time being. It could be something as simple as a missing child that has some common thread that touches the lives of many people and make them decide they want their kids lojacked. Stranger things have happened.

Look at all the good it could do:

No more missing persons or children.
Realtime census
Crime and the resources allocated to it would go down.
Email could eventually replace regular mail.
Trees would then be saved better for the environment(though the internet does use 10&#37; of the countries electricity which must come from some where)

These are just ideas thrown out there. No right no wrong just mental fodder. :)

As far as the wild west ending, because all good things come to end. For example people are and will do something about things like id theft, internet fraud ...etc. Seriously not that I'm a fan of id theft or internet fraud mind you.

xor

Ps Didn't realize you ran the lock pick village at Defcon DO until now. I know lame, but I couldn't get in; plus to busy frying my brain on knowledge base stuff. If I come to Shmoocon I have an Abloy 220 disk lock I would like you take a look at and try and pick. Gave one to Renderman at Defcon never heard whether or not he tried to pick it.

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* Forum (legal), a designated space for public expression
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[Deviant Ollam]

Re: Personal Digital Signatures

ok... this is a very long post but potentially very rewarding in terms of discussion. read on, if you can manage...

When you are born before you even have a name you have an RFID chip embedded in your wrist or hand; instant digital citizen.

i can't even begin to describe the manifold number of ways that this is a Bad Idea™ and have difficulty containing the absolute contempt and low regard in which i hold any and all public officials or citizens who can't immediately grasp at least a few of the reasons why this is the case.

Look at all the good it could do:
No more missing persons or children.

unless the kidnapper...

1. zaps the tag, making tracking impossible

2. puts the child inside of a metal structure or other faraday cage, making tracking impossible

3. clones the tag, making tracking a nightmare (think of dozens of NYC cops running all over central park trying to find and apprehend squirrels)

4. overwrites the tag, making fear of being caught almost nil and maybe even making legal reclamation of a child a nightmare

Realtime census

if we put readers all the fuck over the place, sure. that is, unless someone cracks the algorithm or database and suddenly over-populates (on paper) the ranks in certain key voting districts, etc.

Crime and the resources allocated to it would go down.

this is the Worst Notion of All™ with respect to anything that dramatically reduces civil liberties. the problem, at its core, pertains to so many people having a fundamental misunderstanding of what civil liberties are for and why they matter.

warning... warning... warning... those who blindly accepted and never questioned anything they were told in social studies class may feel a pain between their ears when i try to get the following concept across...

civil liberties do not exist to protect law-abiding behavior. activities, thoughts, and beliefs that are given a stamp of approval by those in power (both in positions of legal power as well as social power) need very little protection. people who subscribe to mainstream systems of faith, who follow all legislated law to the letter, and who do not hold unconventional beliefs have little to fear from their governments and civic organizations.

civil liberties exist to protect illicit behavior from oversight or interference. while this may run contrary to what strict law-and-order types think about society, it should be noted that i'm not talking about violently or harmfully criminal behavior. (although criminals in the general sense all gain some degree of protection and benefit from civil liberties and government restraint.) the goal of establishing civil liberties is not to explicitly allow criminals to prey on other citizens, but to carve out protected spaces where certain "unapproved" activities can take place without obstruction or repercussion.

all societies -- old, new, and in the foreseeable future -- have suffered the disease of pushy busybodies gaining positions of power. citizens who have held unpopular beliefs, engaged in "immoral" activities, or sought to live life by unconventional rules have often found themselves facing social stigma and even legal prosecution or incarceration. remember, at one time or another even in our "free" land the following things have been causes of social outcast status, loss of property, loss of freedom, and sometimes even loss of life...

1. not being christian (from the puritan era forward, really)

2. not being the right type of christian (during high immigration periods anti-catholic fervor was extreme)

3. not believing certain things politically (the socialism movement was huge around the turn of the century but being crushed in the 20s and 30s)

4. supporting or opposing certain military conflicts (from draft resistors being beaten and jailed to critics of the government being tried for "sedition", the list is huge here)

5. agitating for better labor standards (union membership was grounds for vicious social attack and is still a reason to be fired in many areas)

6. preferring specific intoxicants (the prohibition of alcohol was thankfully short-lived, but many drugs are still illegal and those who chose to utilize them are considered criminals in the eyes of the law)

7. having unapproved sexual and emotional attractions (most states had laws on the books condemning homosexuality in the past. also common were anti-miscegenation statutes prohibiting love and intimacy between people of differing races)

8. matters of women's health (abortion, while legal, remains a controversial subject and women who avail themselves of specific types of medical care can face social ruin or even criminal charges in certain instances)

the activities in all of the above-mentioned list are 100&#37; proper (in my view) for anyone to choose to engage in. they are personal choices and the god-given, innate right of all human beings in my view. however, this personal sovereignty has been repeatedly threatened by changes in society's norms and legislated regulations.

civil liberties exist to protect (and have successfully protected) all of the above activities or beliefs. if they can't get to you, they can't persecute you. that makes you safer and makes society healthier. technologies that allow governments to see more deeply into our affairs (or even technologies that allow governments to see more overall into the general affairs of the whole populace) diminish our privacy and all the protections tied to it.

in short, civil liberties exist to protect your ability to break the law... because the law is so often wrong.

Ps Didn't realize you ran the lock pick village at Defcon DO until now. I know lame, but I couldn't get in; plus to busy frying my brain on knowledge base stuff. If I come to Shmoocon I have an Abloy 220 disk lock I would like you take a look at and try and pick.

yeap, that's me. when you say you couldn't get in, do you mean you tried to stop by the lockpick village and it was closed or too full?

as for the abloy, one needs a special tool to get rotating disk locks open. i've been trying to track one down for a while now from people in the dutch chapter of TOOOL.

[xor]

Re: Personal Digital Signatures

Just for the record you are right and I agree with you 120&#37;. As many of my posts in netstumbler point out. Just playing devils advocate here. I think some of the worst things in history have been done in the name of faith, and for the "children", ..etc. On this and some other forums we have some of the most clever and intelligent people on the planet here, and if we don't decide the future those people in the post above will. If you found your way to this forum I think you are a giant. When I go to conventions I am truly humbled by the company I'm in.

I just think it's odd that people here don't speak out more. I feel like they are dying to share their thoughts but are afraid to.

I mean after that Janet Jackson thing I'm now forced to watch movies like Animal House and The Blues Brothers, on a Classic Movie channel with the curse words over dubbed. These movies are Americana IMHO, sacred they are part of a generations identity, yet we tolerate this and allowed it to happen. All because of a blurry boob.

I just don't want to see these things happen again that's why I try and talk about them.

xor

Ps. If you aren't totally pissed off you aren't paying attention.

PPs It could be worst, I could make statements like Ann Coultergeist (roll eyes) :)

[xor]

Re: Personal Digital Signatures

yeap, that's me. when you say you couldn't get in, do you mean you tried to stop by the lockpick village and it was closed or too full?

as for the abloy, one needs a special tool to get rotating disk locks open. i've been trying to track one down for a while now from people in the dutch chapter of TOOOL.

Yeah, each time I went up it was either locked (no pun intended) or full.

xor

Ps I'll still bring the lock if I come to Shmoocon it's just a paper weight on my desk.

[Thorn]

Re: Personal Digital Signatures

I just don't want to see these things happen again that's why I try and talk about them.

Part of the reason that it doesn't get talked about more is that there is a general prohibition on political speech here. Some of us dance up close to the line at times, but we tend not to get into the real meat of matter.

Previously there had been a 'Politics and Religion' sub-forum. Unfortunately, a lot of the discussion devolved into the usual political flame war too often seen on the Internet, so the forum was closed.

[sharxbyte]

Re: Personal Digital Signatures

i have a vauge ideas of what a pds is. i currently do not have one, but im not sure i want one. wouldnt it be alot easier to steel/aquire information about somone? i definately do not want somone knowing my life history.(not that its terrible, just confidential)

[sharxbyte]

Re: Personal Digital Signatures

i've read many of the replies, but ill finish after. this is just so i don't forget.
__________________________________________________ ______________

ok, now, picture yourself running from the feds(your are innocent, and were framed) and then all of a sudden, you see a light blinking on your wrist. you had no idea that it was there. all of a sudden:

option a:
you see a digital countdown sequence, and when it hits zero, you are blasted into oblivion and know nothing. no trial, just BOOM!.


option b:
you see a group of choppers circle in on you digital signature. you cant hide, because theres a gps in your wrist. you are captured and sentenced to life in prison.

_________________OR_________________

you go downstairs one morning to see blood everywhere. you child is on the floor barely conscious. you notice the knife in one hand that they were using to cut out the chip.

--------------------------------------------------------

yes, a little drastic, but all possible. i dont want anything in my body that shouldn't be there(maybe a fake organ if i REALLY need it, but u get my point) for many reasons. they could do anything to me. they could record anything i said, did, thought, my locations, my transactions, i wouldnt have a life. they would know everything about me. my friends names, my pedigree, my religious affiliations, the native countries of every ancestor back to adam. it would open up so many doors discrimination etc.

in [not so] short, i wouldnt want that information potentially available to everyone i bought a coffee or a pack of gum from. would there be ways to secure it? yes, but there's another side to that. would there be ways to hack it? ALWAYS. so i am totally against it.

ok... this is a very long post but potentially very rewarding in terms of discussion. read on, if you can manage...

i read the post, and we seem to agree in most of points you made(i dissagree with homosexuality, and with the overuse of intoxicants and abortion, but small issues in this discussion). the only reason that i didn't put the whole post under quote was the length.

[xor]

Re: Personal Digital Signatures

Again playing devils advocate here.

But the government already has that ability. If they focus even one eye ball on you than they have all the info and more.

They can track credit, cell phones, cash, EZPass ...etc. We are all just mere tenants of the government, stop paying taxes and find out just how quickly that home you think you own isn't yours anymore. If they want to know they will. The only way you can avoid them is to totally drop of of society, live in a cave, have stone age technology, and eat bugs. Oh and move to northern Pakistan.

You would be by yourself, where the other person that comes to mind has a lot of help.

xor

Ps If everything can be cracked short of nuclear launch codes; do we or will we ever really have any digital security at all, or is it just an illusion?