Ninja party is canceled this year

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: Ninja party is canceled this year

to start off, i'd like to thank Barkode and everyone else who has run the Ninja Party at DEFCON. like many others who commented in this thread, i agree that was one of the very top elements of the con and something i looked forward to every single year.

in the face of this, i'm drawn more than anything to DT's comment...

We will be looking for a new hotel..

... that, above all else, makes me so very, very happy. i have liked certain aspects of the Riviera but have consistently had negative experiences here since we arrived. Do not confuse that with me saying that my DEFCONs have been bad ones the past few years... DEFCON is always the highlight of my summer. But the Riv went from bad to worse in terms of attitude.

At first i chalked it up to growing pains, and hoped that the hotel (after the first year) would realize that we're not all criminal meth addicts bent on satanic world domination and treat us properly the following years. It turns out they somehow instead decided that we are so polite and "normal" that we can be looked at as cash machines like every other bozo in las vegas.

i applaud DT's comments and can only hope and pray that the search will result in a new venue for DC17. can the turnaround happen that fast? or are we stuck at the Riv for at least one more summer? (i don't know how far out the lead time goes on DEFCON planning)

Would hosting it at another hotel (besides transport logistics and last minute planning) cost just as much?

see Barkode's comments below...

having the event offsite makes it less convenient to just wander up to casually. It makes it a "thing" that requires forethought and dominates your time, and on top of that, it takes people away from DEFCON, which is counterproductive.

i'm 100% with you on this, man. anything that is off-site is, in practice, a pretty shit idea during a con. it may sound good on paper but it just doesn't work out, in my opinion. pre-con events, post-con gatherings... that's another story. but during just about any con i want stuff to be at the hotel.

Could we totally pull some hacker shit? Absolutely. But there's other factors to consider

the last thing we'd want to do is put you or any of the Ninjas in a troubled position. but, i would ask that you don't discount our own ingenuity and the potential options that still exist for pulling this off right there in the Skybox which...

1. we all love to be in
2. you have already planned on using
3. is a great location

People can walk in with their own drinks, but with no bar, they're going to have to walk right back out to get another one.

this could be the most key factor of all. nothing disrespectful of the law or anything that would make people's lives into real hell... but i think that we could totally blast the Riv in the wallet by following that exact rule.

allow me to explain (and this is just me rambling... could be stupid of me to talk so openly about an idea that may never get off the ground because it may just get everyone all fussy and excited about something that may never happen)

1. imagine flyers/tickets/something that say "send an SMS to this number for pre-ninja-party alcohol delivery to your room"
2. in the one or two hours leading up to the ninja party, a squad of volunteers blasts out to the first like 200+ rooms to send a text
3. the alcohol volunteers verify that the person who answers the room door is over 21, and they dispense with a bottle of something purchased from maybe a $2000 booze supply
4. they also give the room a ninja party ticket (follow me on this)
5. any people will be allowed in at the door if they are over 21 and the room isn't too packed... but those who actually bring a ticket down with them will get a KILLER swag item that everyone will want... maybe some sort of drop-leg bag holster with the Ninja Logo on it. this would be used as a booze holster in the party... the people who brought down a bottle (which was delivered by volunteers earlier) would holster said bottle in their leg bag, then just mix drinks all night for anyone they wished.

i picture a bar with 100% non-alcoholic beverages and cups and ice (the hotel can't get in a twist about that) and then the Riv just has to deal with the fact that everyone is having a good time on their own and they priced themselves right out of the equation.

like i say... this might not happen at all (or someone else takes the ball and runs with it) but it would be a way for us to have a great, fully "free drink" party in a skybox without hotel bartenders or even any kind of "open" bar at all

could some people just send an SMS and then not come down to the party? possibly... that's just the cost of doing business. i think that people would want their free gift and their minibosses concert more than a small 750 bottle of vodka or rum.

[tendency]

Re: Ninja party is canceled this year

well. when i got the text messages last night i hoped it wasn't true.

no, no, no, no, no, no NO. godDAMNIT.

and here i'm coming back this year and everything. well hell. ninjakin, see you all soon, party or no.

tendency_

[valkyrie]

Re: Ninja party is canceled this year

Barkode --

I was never invited to your fine party, though I heard many good words about it. This is a travesty. Your alls party is a DefCon treat! How does this get fixed going forward? Or does it get fixed at all? Seems the folks in LV don't love us any more. OOOOO! I have an idea! Let's transplant Con to Tejas! It's hot, dry and there is a lake near by. Sounds like LV to me!

Regards,

valkyrie

[[Syntax]]

Re: Ninja party is canceled this year

I'm assuming some other groups/parties are going to run into this road block as well. Is it possible to circumvent this whole thing by getting multiple groups together and an area larger than the skybox being used? 15k is steep, even with 3 groups thats a chunk of change before other costs involved.

No idea how feasible this idea is, but Im sure people would be more than willing to pay a small cover.

I remember the bartenders who appeared, and I thought to myself I wonder if these guys are being paid? I was one of the many people who tossed money into a cup/bucket whatever it was on the counter. Now that I know where It went, I have a little more despise for the hotel than I already did.

[astcell]

Re: Ninja party is canceled this year

I'll buy drinks from the Alexis Park bar before the Riviera bar after this. A local liquor store is going to get a lot of business from me. Maybe I'll get a 30 gallon super soaker backpack and offer free drinks to all from it.

Another option for the hotel is that next year they charge normal room rates and get their profit that way. It is still cheaper than the AP was, and they can easily see an extra 12 grand that way, from all ages, and even the non-drinkers.

[converge]

Re: Ninja party is canceled this year

Definitely a drag reading this thread .. the Ninja party was a major highlight for me last year (as usual) and I was really looking forward to it this con. Much gratitude for all the bullshit you folks have put up with to make it happen.

Been thinking, but haven't had any sparks.. mostly thinking about pudding. sigh.


Authority circumvention in Vegas has a little extra risk, as you're not exactly dealing with the law..

[jedi]

Re: Ninja party is canceled this year

Well said, I still say you need to stop thinking cushy hotel and start thinking burning man for at least the party. It worked at Shmoocon though it was held at a club.

The burner experience is not for all.

[jedi]

Re: Ninja party is canceled this year

We will be looking for a new hotel..

Any chance you (or any of the core DC folks) can elaborate on this? Is the hotel actually unhappy with the con as a whole? Or is the kind of situation that you folks as the organizers have been experiencing and this particular issue is the straw that broke the camel's back?

[xor]

Re: Ninja party is canceled this year

*poke* Desert has been thought of... however.... those of us who have gear LIKE our gear. I've been throwing raves (legal and illegal) for the past 13 years. i'm sure that is how long some of the Ninjas have been at it, too.

either way, everyone is just looking for something fun to do at night, something close and cheep.

Bottom line...the hotel made it extremely difficult for the Ninjas to throw a party. Doesn't matter about getting it moved, etc...we (DC attendees) are throwing money to the Riv and getting screwed for it. I don't know all the details, but if the Riv was your landlord, would you be mad, too?

I can't imagine how hard it is to negotiate a hotel and how unfun it probably is and I am glad it isn't me who gets to grease the wheels.
Godspeed to DT and everyone else for scouting out a hotel for DC.

Whimpers(foo), plays taps, hugs cats, rolls over and goes to bed. :-)

xor

[DJ Jackalope]

Re: Ninja party is canceled this year

Well said, I still say you need to stop thinking cushy hotel and start thinking burning man for at least the party.
xor

*poke* Desert has been thought of... however.... those of us who have gear LIKE our gear. I've been throwing raves (legal and illegal) for the past 13 years. i'm sure that is how long some of the Ninjas have been at it, too.

either way, everyone is just looking for something fun to do at night, something close and cheep.

Bottom line...the hotel made it extremely difficult for the Ninjas to throw a party. Doesn't matter about getting it moved, etc...we (DC attendees) are throwing money to the Riv and getting screwed for it. I don't know all the details, but if the Riv was your landlord, would you be mad, too?

I can't imagine how hard it is to negotiate a hotel and how unfun it probably is and I am glad it isn't me who gets to grease the wheels.
Godspeed to DT and everyone else for scouting out a hotel for DC.

[Voltage Spike]

Re: Ninja party is canceled this year

First of all, thanks for the parties (and "non-parties" at other conventions ). I try to contribute in little ways, but I've never been there in the unreasonable extreme that you guys go for.

If we pony up this kind of cash, the hotel is going to want that from others as well. It's going to set a precedent that you have to seriously pay to play, and that's just not the DEFCON spirit. Reasonable expenses are one thing. Borderline extortion is another. We don't want to screw things up for everyone else later. As soon as the hotel knows they can get this kind of money for unofficial events, they're going to continue to tighten the belt and squeeze money out of everyone they think will pay up.

I agree completely. Additionally, if the bartenders were skimming money off the top, then I would imagine they would cry foul at the loss of an opportunity to do so again (assuming the Riviera manages to keep the same people from year to year). By not caving, you guys could be making friends on the inside.

Additionally, the Riviera management may see that they can collect a few thousand and have a central location they can control ... or they can play a ridiculous game of whack-a-mole all over their property on their own dime.

As for people providing their own alcohol, that doesn't seem out of the question. At an event where people clip bottles of vodka to their backpack and offer out to others, I don't know that finding booze is a problem. Heck, most of us can use the exercise of walking back-and-forth to the stash in our room.

Maybe throw the party and hand out insulated mugs/plastic bottles for people to do with as they wish? The more generous among us could then provide for friends and those who vouch for friends? Heck, alcohol runs during the party sound like they could be quite fun (except for the guy at the door).

I just hope another kick-ass party involving 80s mash-ups and penis necklaces doesn't go away at this con...

I guess it really doesn't matter since Defcon was cancelled this year. (Yes, I groaned a little bit as I typed that.)

[xor]

Re: Ninja party is canceled this year

Winn,

Generally speaking, I couldn't agree more. Ingenuity is a virtue, after all.

The issue here isn't that we couldn't come up with alternative plans. There's a lot of alternative plans that sound good on the surface, until you start to think about them logistically.

Most alternative plans involve a change of venue, and this is a really big problem. Besides the simple fact that hackers are notoriously difficult to get from one place to another, getting people safely and expeditiously to and from the location becomes an additional expense.

On a more intangible level - just having the event offsite makes it less convenient to just wander up to casually. It makes it a "thing" that requires forethought and dominates your time, and on top of that, it takes people away from DEFCON, which is counterproductive.

Then there's the art installations, the access control, the SMS wall, the video games, the band, the sound system, the other cool tech stuff, etc, etc, etc. We'd need to get it to and from the other venue, and some of it is designed specifically for the Riviera room.

Could we make something work if we REALLY wanted to? Absolutely. But it wouldn't be the same. It would be spending a lot of money, it would be settling. Could we totally pull some hacker shit? Absolutely. But there's other factors to consider...

If we wanted to overtly break the rules, or just pay the hotel, or lower our expectations, or totally social engineer some crazy shit, or if I wanted to throw a gigantic fit about it and make a huge terrible political mess, we could figure out a way to throw an event at the Riviera. But out of respect for DEFCON we did not want to break the rules to such an extent, and out of respect for ourselves and everyone else, we didn't want to throw a half-ass event.

Throwing the event off-site - that's just a really different thing altogether. We could do it, but we really don't want to. It's just not the same thing.

The easy solution would be a corporate sponsor, right? Well, that is actually on the table. But one thing we had to take into consideration was that we don't want to set a precedent for those that come after us, or for other similar events at DEFCON. If we pony up this kind of cash, the hotel is going to want that from others as well. It's going to set a precedent that you have to seriously pay to play, and that's just not the DEFCON spirit. Reasonable expenses are one thing. Borderline extortion is another. We don't want to screw things up for everyone else later. As soon as the hotel knows they can get this kind of money for unofficial events, they're going to continue to tighten the belt and squeeze money out of everyone they think will pay up.

So yes, we could start pulling cards out of our sleeves and "get away" with something, but there's some intangible factors to consider.

Well said, I still say you need to stop thinking cushy hotel and start thinking burning man for at least the party. It worked at Shmoocon though it was held at a club.

xor

[barkode]

Re: Ninja party is canceled this year

It seems to me, IMHO, that 8,000 of the smartest people, geekiest people, technical people and the ultimate social engineers should find this current 'obstacle' and opportunity to demonstrate skills. :-) Does this mean we give up? I don't get off work at DC HJ until 1AM and I NEED somewhere close to go. Then again, this WAS all about me. :-)))))))))))

Just thinking... out loud... everything is solveable: Remember Apollo XIII. The guys on the ground were given simulated conditions of what the astronauts had up there. "This is what they have. Now we have to save them." Arguably a twisted parallel, but one that nonetheless makes the point. :-)

Winn

Winn,

Generally speaking, I couldn't agree more. Ingenuity is a virtue, after all.

The issue here isn't that we couldn't come up with alternative plans. There's a lot of alternative plans that sound good on the surface, until you start to think about them logistically.

Most alternative plans involve a change of venue, and this is a really big problem. Besides the simple fact that hackers are notoriously difficult to get from one place to another, getting people safely and expeditiously to and from the location becomes an additional expense.

On a more intangible level - just having the event offsite makes it less convenient to just wander up to casually. It makes it a "thing" that requires forethought and dominates your time, and on top of that, it takes people away from DEFCON, which is counterproductive.

Then there's the art installations, the access control, the SMS wall, the video games, the band, the sound system, the other cool tech stuff, etc, etc, etc. We'd need to get it to and from the other venue, and some of it is designed specifically for the Riviera room.

Could we make something work if we REALLY wanted to? Absolutely. But it wouldn't be the same. It would be spending a lot of money, it would be settling. Could we totally pull some hacker shit? Absolutely. But there's other factors to consider...

If we wanted to overtly break the rules, or just pay the hotel, or lower our expectations, or totally social engineer some crazy shit, or if I wanted to throw a gigantic fit about it and make a huge terrible political mess, we could figure out a way to throw an event at the Riviera. But out of respect for DEFCON we did not want to break the rules to such an extent, and out of respect for ourselves and everyone else, we didn't want to throw a half-ass event.

Throwing the event off-site - that's just a really different thing altogether. We could do it, but we really don't want to. It's just not the same thing.

The easy solution would be a corporate sponsor, right? Well, that is actually on the table. But one thing we had to take into consideration was that we don't want to set a precedent for those that come after us, or for other similar events at DEFCON. If we pony up this kind of cash, the hotel is going to want that from others as well. It's going to set a precedent that you have to seriously pay to play, and that's just not the DEFCON spirit. Reasonable expenses are one thing. Borderline extortion is another. We don't want to screw things up for everyone else later. As soon as the hotel knows they can get this kind of money for unofficial events, they're going to continue to tighten the belt and squeeze money out of everyone they think will pay up.

So yes, we could start pulling cards out of our sleeves and "get away" with something, but there's some intangible factors to consider.

[xor]

Re: Ninja party is canceled this year

We will be looking for a new hotel..

Using Jedi mind control:

Come to Philadelphia, you want to have Defcon in Philadelphia at the convention center.......

:-)

xor

[xor]

Re: Ninja party is canceled this year

Rant(Rave) On:

I'm shocked at all of you. Obviously never been to a rave :-). What does Las Vegas have a lot of, public land aka Desert. There isn't a crew out in Vegas that wouldn't co-host a rave some where out in the desert on public land. Rent a bus, you can't rent a bus for $2500.

They don't have drunk buses in Vegas? My brothers bachelor party is renting one here in Philly for the entire day/night until the wee hours of the morning to drive people from way out into the burbs to a Phillies game then to ummmmmm Day Dreams, an all night BYOB/Keg ummmm establishment. :-)

We had illegal parties in downtown SF and never got caught, in parks, on the beach, on the naval base, in shipping containers. I refuse to believe this isn't possible in Vegas.

SHAME ON YOU ALL!!!!! :-)

Time and effort people, that's all it takes.

Rant(Rave) Off:

xor

Ps Don't they have a big public lake out there close to the city.