Starting on Thursday....

[shrdlu]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

Yeah, just make the 101 talks the first ones on friday, new attendees are far more likely to be gung ho to wake up early to go to a talk :)

I miss having it start randomly, somewhere around 11 (no matter what the program said). 9AM? Who the hell is pleasant and ready for talks at 9AM? We know for sure that I'm not. It would have been perfect if Adam Savage had been scheduled for then. I'd bet anything that the folks who were gung ho to see him were also the set of people who were up and ready to go at that hour.

101 could be a long series of talks too, say an entire track friday. I could think of a dozen "intro to ..." talks that would benefit a lot of people (even old hands).

I really like this idea (disclosure: I was the third or fourth no vote in the poll up above), but I seem to recall that we'd had newbie tracks before, and that everyone wanted to go to all the other tracks instead. Still, perhaps marking the track as "introductory" rather than "newbie" so that there would be less onus on the attenders might be useful.

I really hated to see the stress and exhaustion on the faces of the security goons on Saturday and Sunday. Either get more goons and give every goon a full day off, or don't do Thursday sessions. Please.

[kallahar]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

Yeah, just make the 101 talks the first ones on friday, new attendees are far more likely to be gung ho to wake up early to go to a talk :)

101 could be a long series of talks too, say an entire track friday. I could think of a dozen "intro to ..." talks that would benefit a lot of people (even old hands).

[Chris]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

DC101 was never intended to be a tactical teaching session. DC101 was merely to let noobs know what is available to do at DefCon. The original conception was more of an ad-hoc gathering than anything official.

All the other stuff that went off on Thursday I believe was the idea of other people. I value the Security Goons too much for them to have to work harder than they already do. So, I don't misunderstand you Eris, I completely agree with you. However, I still contend that something for the noobs is valuable. Exactly how that should be approached, I don't know.

Thanks for your comments. I truly appreciate them. I hope the organizers and planners hear you as well.

Regards,

valkyrie
___________________________________
sapere aude

Val---

I fully support a newbie track. Always have. I think for at least one day (if not all three) that it's a good idea to have not necessarily a DEF CON 101 but definitely a Hacking 101. I have thought for years that we have raced to get the latest and greatest 0day or technique into the press at the expense of new attendees who have interest and want to learn but are just getting started. Maybe I am wrong here, but I think this is a bigger percentage of the attendees than we probably know. I think we should have at least a full day of tracks dedicated specifically to them.

Not everyone that comes to DEF CON is as skilled as the speakers (shocking) and I think there are attendees that could benefit from talks on exactly what buffer overflows are, what SQL injection is, etc and how to do these things. It's not going to be for everyone and if more seasoned attendees went to these sessions they'd probably be bored, but for new people I think type of information would be very valuable. If we did this track say, all day Friday, and opened it with a 2 hour DC101 talk that was going on at the same time as Joe's talk about the badge I think it could work well.

[lil_freak]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

No, is my answer. The four days made for extra work, grumpy goons in the last standing hours, and attendees too tired to make it through Sunday.

Plus as Chris stated, those of you who keep saying stuff about getting badges early, this is not a new thing. Getting your badge on Thursday wouldn't change, however I'm sure the time would go back to it's normal noon time frame if we stuck with our normal three day event.

[valkyrie]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

I vote no. The overlap with BH was not a good thing. The overworking of the Goon staff was not a good thing.

Personally, I go to DC early on WED or THU to hang out with my friends that work staff before they have to work. Many of them I only get to see one time a year and it is at DC. I appreciate the opportunity to chat and drink and sit around with them before they are too busy and eventually too exhausted.

Noobs who want to learn from old timers can do this just as effectively by just sitting around with us and listening, it doesn't require an official talk that no matter what anybody says will require official staff. Someone has to take the responsibility for a gathering in a convention area owned by a hotel and that someone is con staff. Don't get me wrong, Val, it was a good idea but it can be done much less complicated I think.

Let the staff take a breather people, you will get better results in the long run.

DC101 was never intended to be a tactical teaching session. DC101 was merely to let noobs know what is available to do at DefCon. The original conception was more of an ad-hoc gathering than anything official.

All the other stuff that went off on Thursday I believe was the idea of other people. I value the Security Goons too much for them to have to work harder than they already do. So, I don't misunderstand you Eris, I completely agree with you. However, I still contend that something for the noobs is valuable. Exactly how that should be approached, I don't know.

Thanks for your comments. I truly appreciate them. I hope the organizers and planners hear you as well.

Regards,

valkyrie
___________________________________
sapere aude

[eris]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

I vote no. The overlap with BH was not a good thing. The overworking of the Goon staff was not a good thing.

Personally, I go to DC early on WED or THU to hang out with my friends that work staff before they have to work. Many of them I only get to see one time a year and it is at DC. I appreciate the opportunity to chat and drink and sit around with them before they are too busy and eventually too exhausted.

Noobs who want to learn from old timers can do this just as effectively by just sitting around with us and listening, it doesn't require an official talk that no matter what anybody says will require official staff. Someone has to take the responsibility for a gathering in a convention area owned by a hotel and that someone is con staff. Don't get me wrong, Val, it was a good idea but it can be done much less complicated I think.

Let the staff take a breather people, you will get better results in the long run.

[bombnav]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

I loved Dr. K's 3 hour talk on thrusday. That kind of talk is not possible during DEFCON. It was very informative, not rushed and I learned a lot. So as it was this year, DEFCON 18 can start at 1300 on Thurs for talks that really don't fit the 55 min format for the con. I think DC 101 needs to continue as well as DC welcomes new people every year. I think DT said DC 18 will be JUL 29 thru AUG 1 next year so looks like to me Thursday is a done deal. If the Badge thing is sorted out this year whats the difference, attend on Thursday if you want or come in Friday Morning. As for BH and DC crossovers.... keep them seperate and you BH folks can just wait in line with the rest of us DC people.

This was my 4th DC and every year it gets better not becuase of the talks and parties but becuase every year I get more involved with what is going on. So my final advice is to pick your talks wisely and spend the rest of your time in a contest, village or something like that making friends and really seeing what makes DC special.

[slimm609]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

I feel that thursday should also be kept short and easy maybe pre-reg and TBBQ, etc. There is enough that goes on in the 3 days to stay busy. I was kinda upset with some of the speakers. Also since defcon comes as part of black-hat it would be nice to be able to get your defcon badge at blackhat and not have to worry about going back and forth on thursday to actually get a badge. So I am with the majority and say NO for thursday.

keep thursday a simple day pre-reg, etc. and social networking.

[willasaywhat]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

I did attend the talks that day, and some were better than others, but it was a good precursor to the actual con. The "Con Kung-Fu: Defending Yourself @ DEFCON" talk was invaluable in respect to connecting to the network and being alert. The other talk I attended that evening was "Effective Information Security Career Planning", which seemed at face value to be a great idea for a talk, but in retrospect myself and crew ended up bailing early to hit the food court.

That said, I completely understand the staffing issues. The MBs did a great job cat herding that night, but I can see how making Thursday an official con day would require some goon labor. I think keeping Thursday low-key, "unofficial official" pre-conference content would be the best option. If the volunteers are there, cool, if not then we can wait til Friday.

And as a side note, everyone I met this first year at Defcon both on and off the forums have been more than hospitable. Thank you all for that. Seriously.

[Chris]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

Being that this was my first year at Defcon, I'm not sure my opinion is completely justified, but that said I think starting on Thursday worked just fine. Everything was clearly labeled "pre-con" and those of us who were able to get through the registration lines and snag a badge (eventually) were very happy about it. DC101 was a great intro, but mostly the extra day afforded more time to meet and greet before the hustle and bustle began the following day. Although I didn't catch names, I vaguely remember meeting a few black badge holders down in the lobby of the Riv as early as Wednesday night. For a newbie trying to navigate the physical and social terrain it certainly helped put me at ease. I knew where everything was before the crowds filtered in, and I'd already met people to hang out with for the weekend.

This isn't directed specifically at you....

Ok...you guys do understand that we have done registration on Thursday for at least 10 years, right? As a general rule registration has always opened Thursday at noon. This year we opened it at 8 I think. The problem is that up until this year the ONLY official thing going on on Thursday was registration. Everything else was unofficial. Some staff had to be there for setup, but for the most part, the guys that have to do the absolute most walking (security goons) didn't have to be there to work on Thursday. Now they do. If people are voting yes because of registration, rest assured that reg will always be on Thursday.

I won't state my case anymore because obviously my pleas are falling on deaf ears, but basically the only difference between Thursday DEF CON and Friday DEF CON to attendees is the few extra talks that were scheduled this year.

[willasaywhat]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

Being that this was my first year at Defcon, I'm not sure my opinion is completely justified, but that said I think starting on Thursday worked just fine. Everything was clearly labeled "pre-con" and those of us who were able to get through the registration lines and snag a badge (eventually) were very happy about it. DC101 was a great intro, but mostly the extra day afforded more time to meet and greet before the hustle and bustle began the following day. Although I didn't catch names, I vaguely remember meeting a few black badge holders down in the lobby of the Riv as early as Wednesday night. For a newbie trying to navigate the physical and social terrain it certainly helped put me at ease. I knew where everything was before the crowds filtered in, and I'd already met people to hang out with for the weekend.

[Schuyler]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

Whatever you decide to put on them, I would happily volunteer to design you some bangin' t-shirts for the MBs.

[valkyrie]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

I can understand the goon frustration with monkey butlers. It could be very easy for people to not realize the volunteer basis without having read the threads before con. Next year there should be a big fat "DC101 VOLUNTEER" on the back of the shirts to make it perfectly clear.

You may do that if you are making the t-shirts. I believe that "Monkey Butler" is clear enough that one is a volunteer. YMMV.

I think this would be used quite heavily if it were implemented. Every year there are a number of people that go around and help carry stuff/volunteer in general anyway. Hell, I've been Siviak's bitch for going on five years.

The biggest issue would be making sure that everyone concretely knows they aren't staff, they have no authority, and for better or worse are just willing bitches for the good of con!

I would suspect that if people are properly vetted they WON'T get all uppity and think they are staff, have any authority, and are just willing monkey butlers helping out. Again, YMMV.

Regards,

valkyrie
_________________________________________
sapere aude

[converge]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

Though the Black Hat goon shirts were really nice; even though they looked itchy to wear.

Were they the same general make as prior years? I consider myself hefty and I can do laps in the desert in those things without breaking a sweat. .. plus they look frickin awesome.

[xor]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

Um..ya..the Monkey Butler thing..

They have nothing to do with the conference in any sort of official capacity. Let's not do anything to encourage the belief that they do. Overall, I'm pretty irritated with the Monkey Butler thing. The MB thing was a creation of some of our more overzealous forum members and should probably be abandoned. They're attendees in blue shirts and nothing more.

You are just jealous that we had cooler shirts Though the Black Hat goon shirts were really nice; even though they looked itchy to wear.

xor