Starting on Thursday....

[valkyrie]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

The monkey butler system could help solve some problems at con if they were taken as a volunteer service resource. I could envision circumstances where a few extra bodies were needed to help with even simple tasks, and monkey butlers could help with this.

The original idea for Monkey Butlers was for a group of people that would step out and fetch as needed, like finding speakers if needed, or getting supplies for parties, or going out the get a lunch order, and be rewarded with whatever.

The original idea was very good. It included the concept of a single place people could all go to volunteer their time to help in some way, even if not in any official capacity.

Really, I don't think that using MB as security is a good idea unless security goons ask for them, and the probably won't ever need the help, but I do think they could provide a collection of volunteers.

How nice would it be to have a monkey butler available to go get take-out for a small group of people planning a party? Heck, a monkey butler could wait in a line for a person, on a one-to-one relationship (one person holding a space in line for one person) as needed and then get out of line when the person returns to claim their space in line.

I wouldn't want to be a MB, as I like having my Defcon time to myself, but I'm sure there are people out there who would like the opportunity to pay money for go to a con and volunteer a few hours each day. However, the concept is a good one, and could provide people that want to help, and opportunity to do so.

The most difficult problems I see with any kind of Monkey Butler system relate to trust. Both the trust in the people that is only gained when you spend time with them (especially in difficult circumstances) where their true mettle is exposed, and the trust that they are reliable.

Like with security goons, you really want to know the guy that has your back really has your back, and can hold their own. I don't see security being able to take on extra help like that unless they really trust them (in both ways.)

Managed well, even if such a volunteer group wasn't part of any official Defcon, they could help out the social situations and parties if such help was needed.

So the question would then become:
Is there a need for a base of volunteers by other attendees of Defcon to borrow for whatever reasons?

Thank you. They were never intended to act as "security." They were intended to act as helpers and level 1's to look out for potential issues. And yes, there have been discussions regarding having something like a volunteer clearinghouse. :-) Now, let the ideas fly! Thank you Cotman.

regards,

valkyrie
________________________________________
sapere aude

[TheCotMan]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

The monkey butler system could help solve some problems at con if they were taken as a volunteer service resource. I could envision circumstances where a few extra bodies were needed to help with even simple tasks, and monkey butlers could help with this.

The original idea for Monkey Butlers was for a group of people that would step out and fetch as needed, like finding speakers if needed, or getting supplies for parties, or going out the get a lunch order, and be rewarded with whatever.

The original idea was very good. It included the concept of a single place people could all go to volunteer their time to help in some way, even if not in any official capacity.

Really, I don't think that using MB as security is a good idea unless security goons ask for them, and the probably won't ever need the help, but I do think they could provide a collection of volunteers.

How nice would it be to have a monkey butler available to go get take-out for a small group of people planning a party? Heck, a monkey butler could wait in a line for a person, on a one-to-one relationship (one person holding a space in line for one person) as needed and then get out of line when the person returns to claim their space in line.

I wouldn't want to be a MB, as I like having my Defcon time to myself, but I'm sure there are people out there who would like the opportunity to pay money for go to a con and volunteer a few hours each day. However, the concept is a good one, and could provide people that want to help, and opportunity to do so.

The most difficult problems I see with any kind of Monkey Butler system relate to trust. Both the trust in the people that is only gained when you spend time with them (especially in difficult circumstances) where their true mettle is exposed, and the trust that they are reliable.

Like with security goons, you really want to know the guy that has your back really has your back, and can hold their own. I don't see security being able to take on extra help like that unless they really trust them (in both ways.)

Managed well, even if such a volunteer group wasn't part of any official Defcon, they could help out the social situations and parties if such help was needed.

So the question would then become:
Is there a need for a base of volunteers by other attendees of Defcon to borrow for whatever reasons?

If there isn't, then there really wouldn't be a need to provide a service that wouldn't be used.

[valkyrie]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

Um..ya..the Monkey Butler thing..

They have nothing to do with the conference in any sort of official capacity. Let's not do anything to encourage the belief that they do. Overall, I'm pretty irritated with the Monkey Butler thing. The MB thing was a creation of some of our more overzealous forum members and should probably be abandoned. They're attendees in blue shirts and nothing more.

They are helpers. No more. No less. They have no official capacity and I do believe that that was made evident to them. I do apologize if you had issue with the concept.

Regards,

valkyrie
_____________________________________
sapere aude

[valkyrie]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

I would disagree for two reasons. Number one, DC101 is a great opportunity for folks new to DC to meet each other. It might be a lot less intimidating to start things off with a slow pitch, and create a situation where they're all on a level deck together. Second, DC has a flavor and culture all it's own. The lower you set that initial bar, the more likely people are to acclimate and thus contribute.

I do however think that DC101 should be a very low key event. I thought the Monkey Butler's were recruited so that the Goons didn't have to be there to take care of security, although with all the other talks going on Thursday I guess they didn't have a choice. The ideal set up would be, say, DC101 in the chill out room guarded and waited on by Monkey Butlers. Then the Monkey Butler's could help set the room to be the chill out room. Then the Goons don't have to get involved, the chill out people get help, and the Con proper isn't infiltrated.

Isn't it time we opened a thread dedicated to DC101 and suggestions? I would do it but have had Valkyrie jump on my ass before >< Once flamed, twice shy.

Mel

Melesse:

Your comments are sound and yes, the original intent of having the MB's was so that the security goons did not have to be involved. And yes, it was intended to be a low key event. I appreciate your comments because they are directly in-line with what we originally envisioned. Perhaps, if there is a DC101 next year, your ideas will be incorporated into how it goes off.

And I did not flame you. :-) I merely pointed out some inconsistencies. I apologize again for my harshness as I did at that time. Now, can we move on from that?

Regards,

valkyrie
_______________________________________
sapere aude

[MisterVandal]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

Hrm, ok, I am actually capable of posting. Don't know who took my nickname here, but good luck with that.

My thoughts, I thought starting on Thursday was great, really, a lot of us showed up on Wed/Thurs just to hang out. My thoughts are that a lot of the complaints were the badge situation, which couldn't have really been foreseen. Siv and I got our badges early on Thursday but Eris had taken her bag to the room, a few hours and a half later she went to go get her badge to turn it in and got a paper badge, and we showed up at like 9 on thursday.

I am sure a lot of the "why did we start on thursday" complaints would have vanished if the people who showed up on Friday didn't suffer a longer line than usual.

[Melesse]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

Um..ya..the Monkey Butler thing..

They have nothing to do with the conference in any sort of official capacity. Let's not do anything to encourage the belief that they do. Overall, I'm pretty irritated with the Monkey Butler thing. The MB thing was a creation of some of our more overzealous forum members and should probably be abandoned. They're attendees in blue shirts and nothing more.

Hmm, I didn't realize. Well, could DC101 be held somewhere on site, but not on the con proper? So that they could police themselves, so to speak? Or at least somewhere that a minimum of goons need to be involved. Like...one, for two hours?

I agree that the goons have enough to do without adding another day of con.

Mel

[noid]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

I would disagree for two reasons. Number one, DC101 is a great opportunity for folks new to DC to meet each other. It might be a lot less intimidating to start things off with a slow pitch, and create a situation where they're all on a level deck together. Second, DC has a flavor and culture all it's own. The lower you set that initial bar, the more likely people are to acclimate and thus contribute.

I do however think that DC101 should be a very low key event. I thought the Monkey Butler's were recruited so that the Goons didn't have to be there to take care of security, although with all the other talks going on Thursday I guess they didn't have a choice. The ideal set up would be, say, DC101 in the chill out room guarded and waited on by Monkey Butlers. Then the Monkey Butler's could help set the room to be the chill out room. Then the Goons don't have to get involved, the chill out people get help, and the Con proper isn't infiltrated.

Isn't it time we opened a thread dedicated to DC101 and suggestions? I would do it but have had Valkyrie jump on my ass before >< Once flamed, twice shy.

Mel

Um..ya..the Monkey Butler thing..

They have nothing to do with the conference in any sort of official capacity. Let's not do anything to encourage the belief that they do. Overall, I'm pretty irritated with the Monkey Butler thing. The MB thing was a creation of some of our more overzealous forum members and should probably be abandoned. They're attendees in blue shirts and nothing more.

[Melesse]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

The DC101 needs to be a video posted on Defcon.org.

I would disagree for two reasons. Number one, DC101 is a great opportunity for folks new to DC to meet each other. It might be a lot less intimidating to start things off with a slow pitch, and create a situation where they're all on a level deck together. Second, DC has a flavor and culture all it's own. The lower you set that initial bar, the more likely people are to acclimate and thus contribute.

I do however think that DC101 should be a very low key event. I thought the Monkey Butler's were recruited so that the Goons didn't have to be there to take care of security, although with all the other talks going on Thursday I guess they didn't have a choice. The ideal set up would be, say, DC101 in the chill out room guarded and waited on by Monkey Butlers. Then the Monkey Butler's could help set the room to be the chill out room. Then the Goons don't have to get involved, the chill out people get help, and the Con proper isn't infiltrated.

Isn't it time we opened a thread dedicated to DC101 and suggestions? I would do it but have had Valkyrie jump on my ass before >< Once flamed, twice shy.

Mel

[hexjunkie]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

I would be one of the n00bs that everyone loves so much, but I'd like to add in my 2 cents.

While I have never experienced the 3 day defcon where the TBBQ and Summit were before the con.. I'd have to admit there was a lot of overlapping events on that day.

I enjoyed the ability to register a day early, I also loved the n00b talks and would be in favor of n00b classes on Thursday (so that they have a chance to experience the rest of the con without missing any of the great talks). The fortunate thing is this can be executed with minimum staffing the registration staff, the speakers, and a couple of Goons for demon(DC101, Con Kung Fu, Intro to Lock picking, and Intro to something else) and run those 4 classes as the N00B Track before the con officially starts. Do these in the morning from like 10-2 to give peeps the ability to register, attend noob track and not mess with any of the classic pre-con events in the evening.

This is IMHO and can be taken as you like.

[wiseleo]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

I voted "No".

As much as I love Defcon, and I've been to quite a few, there is a point at which it really is too much. Besides, it would overlap with Blackhat.

The DC101 needs to be a video posted on Defcon.org.

I do like the concept of early registration, however. For the price of a cheap hotel night Thu-Fri I can avoid the line of the damned to not receive: badges, CDs (seriously, WTF was with that?!), and schedule.

Early access to Skyboxes could be fun, but those are managed by their own people irrespective of goons, as I understand it.

[theprez98]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

I was part of DC101 and while I agree there should be some content for n00bs, I also voted no on extending into Thursday. The day was a blur from Black Hat to the Riv to DC101 to TBBQ and beyond...

[Schuyler]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

NOW I understand. Schuyler, there was the first talk, in Track 1 on Thursday that was called DC101, A Lurker's Guide to DefCon. It is to this specific talk and no other talks on Thursday to which I allude. ...

Regards,

valkyrie

AH! My bad. Sorry about that, valkyrie! I was definitely using it globally & did not get the chance to attend the actual DC101 talk.

Thoughts on the introduction to whatever talks still stand, but yeah, sorry about my confusion there.

[valkyrie]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

... That was the overall goal of DC101 as a whole, as I understood it. As a result, I'm confident some non-n00bs, even recent nons, were put off by it.

NOW I understand. Schuyler, there was the first talk, in Track 1 on Thursday that was called DC101, A Lurker's Guide to DefCon. It is to this specific talk and no other talks on Thursday to which I allude. Your inclusion of all the other talks on Thursday into "DC101" has had me scratching my head and I wish to make the distinction between them for the sake of clarity.

I don't know how well received the other Thursday talks were received. I received positive feedback on the above mentioned talk as the expected take away of that talk (an overview of all that was available to do at DEFCON) was well managed and the speakers who participated in that talk did a fantastic job in managing those expectations.

All of this said, I'm getting the impression that everyone's expectations for DC101, from attendees, to organizers, to speakers, to goons, to those not participating, are all over the map.

Again, not to pick nits, I was pretty clear that DefCon 101 was one specific talk and the other Thursday talks were what ever they were. And I agree with you, general expectations of Thursday talks seem to be a bit polarized.

Regards,

valkyrie
__________________________________________
sapere aude

[Schuyler]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

It would be like HD Moore going to a TCP/IP 101 talk and then bitching because it was too easy. Make sense or am I way off base in my perception of the DC101 talk?

Dead on. Only, in my own full disclosure, I had to Google HD Moore. :P Seriously, all I do is pick locks. I need to pry my mind open a bit and learn some of the rest of this stuff.

[Chris]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

You know, I can understand some of what you are talking about. I continue to wonder if I wasn't in some sort of bubble this year, but the talk was extremely casual / tongue-in-cheek at times, and def. a different mood from LPV and, I would assume, your BH training. I think Alek's goal, and certainly mine, was to get people comfortable interacting with the physical security offerings at con, not actually teaching a great deal of information. That was the overall goal of DC101 as a whole, as I understood it. As a result, I'm confident some non-n00bs, even recent nons, were put off by it.

I mean, each one hour session, the lion's share of the room had no concept of how a lock actually functioned, made it perfectly clear from the questions they had, and the talk was approached from that standpoint.

Anyway, it's disappointing that it was so poorly received by some. As I said, I've never received such an overwhelmingly positive response, though it was all from brand new people. I'm wondering if DC101 might need some form of expectation management as well?

For me DC101 isn't about extending con for the gross majority of con goers, it's an opportunity for a person to say "Well, I finally want to attend all of the X sub-culture talks & workshops this year, so I'm going to go to DC101 X to get introduced to it" I mean, I'm a physical security guy, that's it. I can't get my head around a lot of the other things con has to offer. If my schedule allows, I'd like to get introduced the same way.

All of this said, I'm getting the impression that everyone's expectations for DC101, from attendees, to organizers, to speakers, to goons, to those not participating, are all over the map.

Full Disclosure: I didn't go to any DC101 talks or to Deviants BH training.

That said, I would assume that the people that went to Deviant's training would by default find at 101 level talk about lock picking laughable. They just spent two days learning ins and outs of locksport. The 101 talk (I assume) was geared toward people that had zero knowledge and wanted to get their feet wet and maybe start to learn some things. Seems like these are two different audiences. It would be like HD Moore going to a TCP/IP 101 talk and then bitching because it was too easy. Make sense or am I way off base in my perception of the DC101 talk?