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  • Rewt Daemon
    replied
    Re: Starting on Thursday....

    Originally posted by valkyrie View Post
    Thank you. I really am not a nice person. :-)
    Lies, all lies. valkyrie IS in fact a VERY nice person and not just on the forums

    To make my post actually on topic:

    I voted YES on the poll but would like to correct that now that I understand the distinction being made between official defcon and the rest: NO.
    An official 101 was awesome. I attended and made the most of it. While I will probably never need to make use of next years' (or any future years') 101 I feel it has value to those attending their first defcon, this should not be sacrificed if at all possible. Whether it needs to be head on the Thursday or not is another issue.

    That being said the Goons ARE overworked and there should be a solution looked into for in that. I certainly plan to offer some time to any MB type system for next year as that may take some of the extra pressure off those of you that make the con worth attending and allow you to do the things we all want to see happen but only you can make happen.

    The unofficial events that happen on Thursday are things that should continue to happen. I for one plan to get out to the defcon shoot next year as well: sounds like you guys had fun. But the really big distinction here is that the guys making sure it was safe and fun were not doing so at Goons, but merely (sic) as responsible participants in the events. And that makes all the difference...

    My $ 0.02 worth at least.
    Last edited by Rewt Daemon; August 15, 2009, 19:26. Reason: bring the post on-topic.

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  • DaKahuna
    replied
    Re: Starting on Thursday....

    no matter what happens, I'll continue to show up on Wednesday.

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  • Schuyler
    replied
    Re: Starting on Thursday....

    Originally posted by shrdlu View Post
    A small divertissement:
    1. It is the second row of a linotype keyboard; etaoin being the first alpha six keys, shrdlu being the second. Look up typesetting if this is an unfamiliar concept. These keys are set up in descending order of frequency of occurrence in the english language (i.e. e is most common, and then t, and then a, etc). This is where the actual sequence originates.
    Oh, I know it well. I had quoted the prior poster, who used the entire etaoin shrdlu, wasn't trying to imply that the shrdlu block was first.

    I didn't know about the AI or the peanuts thing, though (which surprised me, because I've always loved peanuts) which are neat. I had no idea it had any significance in the digital world at all. I love when things like that have crossover.

    There are a ton of examples of etaoin shrdlu ending up in print accidentally / as an inside joke. If you screwed up a line of type, it wasn't easy to go back and correct it, so instead the linotype operators would just run their finger down the keys in order to get to the end of the line, so they could reset. Of course sometimes this accidentally slipped into print sometimes & was often used pseudonymously as a reference to the same.

    Anyway...we're diverging wildly from the actual subject now, sorry to perpetuate it, I was just enjoying the discussion.
    Last edited by Schuyler; August 13, 2009, 15:10. Reason: grammar

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  • valkyrie
    replied
    Re: Starting on Thursday....

    Originally posted by shrdlu View Post
    Not offended. Lacking appropriate caffeine, and my delicate feelings were also hurt.
    /me sooths your delicate feelings and passes you a stellar cup of Columbian, brewed double strength

    Originally posted by shrdlu View Post
    Heck, you're one of the nicer people on the forum (which actually gave me pause when I commented on it).
    Thank you. I really am not a nice person. :-)

    Regards,

    valkyrie
    ________________________________________
    sapere aude

    Leave a comment:


  • shrdlu
    replied
    Re: Starting on Thursday....

    Originally posted by Schuyler View Post
    Huh! That's neat. Never thought about it in that context. I know of it because of Linotype machines. It was like their qwerty.
    A small divertissement:
    1. It is the second row of a linotype keyboard; etaoin being the first alpha six keys, shrdlu being the second. Look up typesetting if this is an unfamiliar concept. These keys are set up in descending order of frequency of occurrence in the english language (i.e. e is most common, and then t, and then a, etc). This is where the actual sequence originates.
    2. One of the best known uses is in the title of an old SF story, Etaoin Shrdlu, by Frederic Brown, from the fifties.
    3. It's also been seen as part of the comic strip, Peanuts. Charlie Brown has said it when he's been frustrated.
    4. It was the name of an AI program written in 1972. This program is also known as "Blocks World," and was written by Terry Winograd as part of his Master's Thesis. It was later published in a book called (if memory serves) "On Natural Language Understanding." SHRDLU is quite well known in the AI community, and is frequently referenced in other areas. Terry Winograd has a page about SHRDLU, himself, explaining how he chose the name.
    5. Shrdlu appears in various forms as the copy editor in the Computer Underground Digest. I imagine that the reference here is to the old linotype, and not to the AI program.
    6. Etaoin Shrdlu also appears to have been the pseudonym of a columnist for the Weekly Reader, a small paper directed at grade school children, and popular in the fifties and sixties.
    7. Another science fiction reference is in the novel "Four Day Planet and Lone Star Planet," by H. Beam Piper. Etaoin shrdlu was a profanity substitute used in the novel, which was written about '63 or '64 when people still used substitutes.

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  • shrdlu
    replied
    Re: Starting on Thursday....

    Originally posted by valkyrie View Post
    Sorry. I am a tard. I shall take up my spelling book and be diligent in the future not to offend you.
    Not offended. Lacking appropriate caffeine, and my delicate feelings were also hurt.

    Heck, you're one of the nicer people on the forum (which actually gave me pause when I commented on it).

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  • valkyrie
    replied
    Re: Starting on Thursday....

    Originally posted by shrdlu View Post
    I hate to do this, but rather than see it become habit...



    and again



    Please don't misspell "shrdlu". I only know one other person who does this, and I believe in that case it's deliberate (and I've become oversensitized to it). It makes me crankier than I know it ought to, but there it is.

    SHRDLU

    {please}
    Sorry. I am a tard. I shall take up my spelling book and be diligent in the future not to offend you.

    Regards,

    valkyrie
    ___________________________________________
    sapere aude

    Leave a comment:


  • Schuyler
    replied
    Re: Starting on Thursday....

    Originally posted by SecretIdentity View Post
    Right. Anyone that has done frequency analysis on letters and letter groups in the English language is familiar with that name, and you can't have two 'U' in single letter frequency analysis, because that would be wrong.

    Anyone that has searched ciphertext for a possible transposition cipher is often delighted to find ETAOIN SHRDLU in the resulting list ranked by frequency from highest to lowest. If one found SHURDLU in their letter frequency list, then one would start to think their investigation tools were broken.

    That would be bad.
    Huh! That's neat. Never thought about it in that context. I know of it because of Linotype machines. It was like their qwerty.

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  • SecretIdentity
    replied
    Re: Starting on Thursday....

    Originally posted by shrdlu View Post
    SHRDLU
    Right. Anyone that has done frequency analysis on letters and letter groups in the English language is familiar with that name, and you can't have two 'U' in single letter frequency analysis, because that would be wrong.

    Anyone that has searched ciphertext for a possible transposition cipher is often delighted to find ETAOIN SHRDLU in the resulting list ranked by frequency from highest to lowest. If one found SHURDLU in their letter frequency list, then one would start to think their investigation tools were broken.

    That would be bad.

    Leave a comment:


  • shrdlu
    replied
    Re: Starting on Thursday....

    I hate to do this, but rather than see it become habit...

    Originally posted by valkyrie View Post
    ...Shurdlu mentioned calling them introductory sessions...
    and again

    Originally posted by valkyrie View Post
    Thank you Roamer, Kallahar, and Shurdlu. Hope the other organizers are listening.
    Please don't misspell "shrdlu". I only know one other person who does this, and I believe in that case it's deliberate (and I've become oversensitized to it). It makes me crankier than I know it ought to, but there it is.

    SHRDLU

    {please}

    Leave a comment:


  • valkyrie
    replied
    Re: Starting on Thursday....

    Originally posted by Chris View Post
    Val---

    I fully support a newbie track. Always have. I think for at least one day (if not all three) that it's a good idea to have not necessarily a DEF CON 101 but definitely a Hacking 101. I have thought for years that we have raced to get the latest and greatest 0day or technique into the press at the expense of new attendees who have interest and want to learn but are just getting started. Maybe I am wrong here, but I think this is a bigger percentage of the attendees than we probably know. I think we should have at least a full day of tracks dedicated specifically to them.
    Agreed. As I have contended through this thread, DC101 was to give people an overview of what was available at DefCon, nothing more. I so appreciate those who showed up to talk about their particular areas and I am sure the new people appreciated it also. A full day of introductory sessions on Friday would require another track room and perhaps some additional security goons. Is this truly feasible? Everyone on staff is pretty much hard pressed already. Many folks, including DT have made comments about it perhaps being quite a bit, with BH the week before. I know that doing two weeks in Vegas can be more than stressful. I do agree that something for new people is important, but at what total cost (no I am not talking primarily about money, I am talking about people's tempers, physical well-being and being stressed out). If there is sufficient interest, perhaps.

    Originally posted by Chris View Post
    Not everyone that comes to DEF CON is as skilled as the speakers (shocking) and I think there are attendees that could benefit from talks on exactly what buffer overflows are, what SQL injection is, etc and how to do these things. It's not going to be for everyone and if more seasoned attendees went to these sessions they'd probably be bored, but for new people I think type of information would be very valuable. If we did this track say, all day Friday, and opened it with a 2 hour DC101 talk that was going on at the same time as Joe's talk about the badge I think it could work well.
    Personally, I think this is an idea that could be explored. Kallahar mentioned jumping them off early. Shurdlu mentioned calling them introductory sessions as opposed to noob talks. I like it, however, as I don't have a 10K view of the whole con, I won't immediately agree those ideas are sound for the greater good; I really have no decision in this. I have a ground floor view. If it works for the attendees without major stressing out the organizers/presenters/security goons/other staff/contests, perhaps it should be looked into.

    Thank you Roamer, Kallahar, and Shurdlu. Hope the other organizers are listening.

    Regards,

    valkyrie
    _____________________________________________
    sapere aude

    Leave a comment:


  • Schuyler
    replied
    Re: Starting on Thursday....

    Originally posted by Dark Tangent View Post
    By the time con rolls around some of us who come over from BH (Grifter, the CTF organizers, etc) have already been going for 6 days. Maybe we have a holiday on Saturday?
    Heh, I know that it's going to be brutal for some people, just wondering if it can be mitigated for anyone who's helping out. Again, I have no clue if it's feasible, or even worthwhile, just typing out loud.

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  • Deviant Ollam
    replied
    Re: Starting on Thursday....

    Originally posted by Schuyler View Post
    it seems like a day off, or maybe in the 3 day format, a half day?
    i know that next year it is my plan for Lockpick Village staff to have an entire day or so off, even core team, at DEFCON. for far too long all my crew has missed out on the conference itself. i hope that this past summer was rather good... we were targeting that sort of scheduling and it seemed that everyone got at least a half day off here and there, or at least proper food breaks, etc.

    you were an ironman in the village, of course. and datagram on saturday while the rest of us were tied up with games on the contest floor... totally helpful beyond words.

    if DEFCON keeps its official start as Thursday, then the villages are going to have to start asking for the ability to access our space on wednesday for load-in and setup. How feasible would that be?

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  • The Dark Tangent
    replied
    Re: Starting on Thursday....

    Originally posted by Schuyler View Post
    I feel like, regardless of the 4th day situation, this could be a cool idea. I have absolutely no idea how the goons would feel about it, but it seems like a day off, or maybe in the 3 day format, a half day? would give them the chance to interact with DC in a way they haven't been able to in their time gooning.

    Or take naps, whichever :)
    By the time con rolls around some of us who come over from BH (Grifter, the CTF organizers, etc) have already been going for 6 days. Maybe we have a holiday on Saturday?

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  • Schuyler
    replied
    Re: Starting on Thursday....

    Originally posted by shrdlu View Post
    ... get more goons and give every goon a full day off...
    I feel like, regardless of the 4th day situation, this could be a cool idea. I have absolutely no idea how the goons would feel about it, but it seems like a day off, or maybe in the 3 day format, a half day? would give them the chance to interact with DC in a way they haven't been able to in their time gooning.

    Or take naps, whichever :)

    Leave a comment:

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