Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

[theprez98]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

The Odds of Airborne Terror

An interesting look at the mathematical odds behind airborne terror attacks.

[theprez98]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

Not since December 2001 when Richard Reid tried to light an explosive in his shoe has the TSA so blatantly closed the barn door long after the horse has gone. Because of Reid we are now, even eight years later, more likely than not required to take off our shoes when going through security, even though there is no evidence to suggest that any idiot would follow this same course of action.

The new TSA policy is stated below:

TSA issued a directive for additional security measures to be implemented for last point of departure international flights to the United States. Passengers flying into the United States from abroad can expect to see additional security measures at international airports such as increased gate screening including pat-downs and bag searches. During flight, passengers will be asked to follow flight crew instructions, such as stowing personal items, turning off electronic equipment and remaining seated during certain portions of the flight.

Based on the observations of people that have flown in the last few days, this has generally been perceived to mean that (at least for international flights inbound to the United States) during the last hour or so of the flight, passengers will be confined to their seats, with no access to the lavatories or their carry-on bags. Further, passengers will probably be prohibited from having anything on their laps or person--no pillows, blankets, laptops, etc. Apparently this because this is exactly what the suspect, Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, allegedly did. Because as you know, the next terrorist will do the exact same thing.

Surely, there is someone among the higher-ups in the TSA who is shaking his or her head at the absurdity of these new policies. Also, these measures will only serve to allow the public to further alienate themselves from flying in general; the nameless figureheads at TSA will be subject to criticism from afar (as I have done here), but the flight attendants will unfortunately bear the brunt of it up close and personal.

By the way, the explosive used by both Richard Reid and Umar Abdulmutallab was PETN, which would not be detected by a magnetometer. Not in 2001, not in 2009. So keep taking off those shoes for the nice folks in the security line.

[beakmyn]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

Planes. I guess though I read it wrong on Consumerist, and it is only for International flights, but the problem I'm having is finding something official that says it. My RSS feed this morning had like 4 posts saying the "no electronics on international flights", but like I said, I can't find anything official.

The pat downs are random (EDIT: and I guess for international flights only as well), here are the new TSA guidelines:
http://www.tsa.gov/press/happenings/dec25_guidance.shtm

edit2: looks like all the new security measures are for international flights into the US. false alarm.

There is no official word. It's up the airline's discretion. The buzzword is unpredictable. If they rules are unpredictable then a terrorist won't take the chance. At least that's what the government wants us to think.

To add to it. I was told on Wednesday coming from Detroit that I could not check batteries containing lithium. Even Lith-ion. So, if I was going to gate check a bag I had to remove any batteries and carry them on board the plane with me.

[g3k_]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

Do you mean no electronics in carry-ons on Amtrak or on planes?

Planes. I guess though I read it wrong on Consumerist, and it is only for International flights, but the problem I'm having is finding something official that says it. My RSS feed this morning had like 4 posts saying the "no electronics on international flights", but like I said, I can't find anything official.

The pat downs are random (EDIT: and I guess for international flights only as well), here are the new TSA guidelines:
http://www.tsa.gov/press/happenings/dec25_guidance.shtm

edit2: looks like all the new security measures are for international flights into the US. false alarm.

[AgentDarkApple]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

Not at all, I'm hoping more people start using it so that the price might go down a little bit. I was considering either taking a train or flying to Shmoo, but the new regulations (no electronics in carry on, mandatory pat down) are making me reconsider taking Amtrak.

Do you mean no electronics in carry-ons on Amtrak or on planes?

If they stop allowing electronics in carry-ons on planes, then people (including me) would think it was just their way of forcing us to pay for checking luggage. Whether I am going somewhere for a couple days or for a couple weeks, I still manage to only have a backpack (about half of which is filled with electronics) and no checked items other than my dog in his kennel.

I think this policy would actually DECREASE safety as 1) passengers accustomed to having laptops, iPods, etc. on long flights would now be bored and become agitated, especially if they are not allowed to leave their seats, which could trigger stress-induced violence or discord. Similarly, people who have flight-related anxiety would no longer have their electronic pacifiers to distract them from the situation and may have a massive freak-out. 2) Theft would increase because thieves could assume that at least every other piece of checked luggage contained some sort of laptop or other expensive electronic device. This would also likely lead to confrontation if someone sees his/her bag being stolen.

It would introduce a host of other problems as well, especially for businessmen/women. I have seen many who do their work on their laptops during the flights, send it to _whomever_ once they are back at the terminal with internet access, call someone about their next flight as soon as they land, etc. If their laptops and phones are in checked luggage where they cannot access them, then these people are sitting around all day, forced to have their once-productive hours wasted. Unless exceptions are made, military personnel acting as a courier for top secret information stored on hard drives would no longer be able to take civilian flights, as they are not allowed to let the briefcase out of their sight until they have safely turned it over to its intended destination. Kids who cannot watch Dora or Bob the Builder or whatever on their portable DVD players during a flight would throw massive fits due to a combination of boredom and having to sit still for so long with nothing to do. At this point, society is too wired to be forcefully unplugged like that.

Additionally, anyone wanting to "pat" me down may trigger this odd reflex that I have - if someone other than my husband tries to pat anything of mine, my response is an elbow to the ribs and a roundhouse to the head.

[beakmyn]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

Welcome to the world of international travel please check your constitutional/civil rights at the door.

Actually, it was reported today it's at the discretion of the airline to ban use of all electronic devices during the entire flight. I'm sure that will make everyone safer. They've already apparently shut off the audio/video system since it shows the GPS location of the airplane.


Please place your seat backs in their full upright position, stow all belongs and ensure your tray table is in the locked position. Your flight attendant will be around shortly to administer the Sodium thiopental. Enjoy your flight!


I got back from Taiwan on Wednesday before this all went down. Damn glad since I had my laptop, PDA and my Fonera out. :)

[streaker69]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

THIS is something I've never understood. If terrorists really wanted to "terrorize," why not send 20 guys out with AK's and shoot up 20 different schools in 20 different states? And then next month go out and shoot up 20 different supermarkets in yet another 20 states. If Terror is the objective, then they are going about it all wrong.


Mel

Much like what happened in DC during the sniper shootings? Everyone down there was terrified of a white van being nearby, and then it turns out they were in a dark blue sedan. After driving down in that area just a few weeks ago, I couldn't help but notice the number of white vans everywhere.

[Melesse]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

Render is uber wise on this. We can only be terrorized if we allow ourselves to be afraid. I am 100% not afraid of a terrorist on my plane. Do I recognize that it's a possibility (however remote)? Yes of course. But I also recognize that I could be in a car accident on the way to the grocery store less than a mile from my house. Terrorists could target that same grocery store, primarily because there are no cameras in the bathrooms and you are allowed to walk around during your last hour there. Why the fuck do we continue to allow ourselves to be scared shitless.

THIS is something I've never understood. If terrorists really wanted to "terrorize," why not send 20 guys out with AK's and shoot up 20 different schools in 20 different states? And then next month go out and shoot up 20 different supermarkets in yet another 20 states. If Terror is the objective, then they are going about it all wrong.

If I were a Jihadist and wanted to ruin the American quality of life through fear, I would do it through random shootings and bombs in middle America. Strip malls, suburbs, supermarkets, unis. Why go for a harder target like a plane?

I understand hijacking a plane, it's difficult to retake a plane cleanly. It's impossible when it's up in the air. But planes are terror attacks? There are much easier targets.

EDIT: G3K, do you have a source for those new regs? Or are those regs for Amtrak? I'm searching through google news right now, but if you could cite something... If electronics are no longer allowed on carry on, I will be petitioning my boss for the ability to travel via Amtrak lol.

Mel

[g3k_]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

Am I the only one who finds it ironic that Amtrak is looking appealing?

Not at all, I'm hoping more people start using it so that the price might go down a little bit. I was considering either taking a train or flying to Shmoo, but the new regulations (no electronics in carry on, mandatory pat down) are making me reconsider taking Amtrak.

[AgentDarkApple]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

One of the best things I've ever read (probobly by Bruce) was that the best way to combat terrorism is to remove the root of the word; the terror. If the media/politicians/feds/etc would STOP breathlessly reporting and announcing the latest foiled attacks (pick any of them) and quietly tried and convicted the perpetrators and sent them to jail instead of trying to score political, advertising, or any other sort of points. Then people wouldn't feel the like there's bad guys under every rock.

Ths stupid, it hurts..

I totally agree with you on this one! Does the Canadian media fly all over these stories like the American media does? It seems like the American media is the main entity to always have a field day if the word "terror" is mentioned or if any ethnicity of "brown people" are involved.

[renderman]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

If I asked you about this topic prior to posting, you might have warned me that it would go in the toilet. Dumb idea, check. While I was hoping this would have spread to loftier concepts of privacy expectations in air travel, and airplane security; it seems to have degenerated to the L.C.D of the "Psycho" shower scene, and they want to video my wee wee hole. :-) I blame no one but myself.

xor

I think we all agree that in the current climate, there is no expectation of privacy anymore. After being all but raped getting on the plane (I guess not going as far as getting raped was what allowed this latest episode) that last little expectation of privacy is in question. Not for any sound security reasoning, but because it looks like they are doing *something*

I think that for the most part, it's a bigger version of your parents house; "My airplane, my rules" (or at least my governing bodies and relevant federal authorities rules as the airlines get little say in much of it)

Am I the only one who finds it ironic that Amtrak is looking appealing?

One of the reasons I love you is because you are wise. I will choose to hitch hick or drive. Why? I have more control over the circumstances. I can get where I want to go more quickly and don't have to show creds to get there. God bless America and the truckers thereby. And yes, I carry a gun.

Thanks Valkyrie. It's sad when I'm a voice of wisdom on anything. Just shows how far off the deep end things are getting.

[xor]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

I've not participated in this thread. What are you referring to?

If I asked you about this topic prior to posting, you might have warned me that it would go in the toilet. Dumb idea, check. While I was hoping this would have spread to loftier concepts of privacy expectations in air travel, and airplane security; it seems to have degenerated to the L.C.D of the "Psycho" shower scene, and they want to video my wee wee hole. :-) I blame no one but myself.

xor

[Lowie]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

Oh yeah. as far as the 3 hour security screening...
Both this tool and the shoe bomber idiot were on international flights. We can't force airports in other countries to comply to our silly rules. When I came home from Japan I didn't even have to take my laptop out of my bag for separate xraying. Either they have xray machines that can actually see through fabric there...or we are all just lucky that the scary brown people haven't figured out that they can sneak their laptop bombs on planes by way of Japan.

Actually the FAA can and does enforce regulation on international airlines flying into the United States. The security checkin / screening procedures for flights departing Australia for the USA have far more stringent security measures than any other sectors.

Of course as per standard international diplomacy procedures these standards are highly variable depending on your countries economic ties to the USA.

But this is a moot discussion in a practical sense. The actual amount of time required to plan, design and implement any type of system on a current aircraft is actually stupendous. Let alone having it approved by all the relevant Aviation authorities where the aircraft will be flying. I'd conservatively put a minimum 4 year time frame to even get close to seeing this happen. And that's after it actually got through the legal approval process.

But despite all those points, as it has been stated by more eloquent people than me, cameras in aircraft lavatories will achieve absolutely NOTHING in the way of security / safety.

[heisenbug]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

The problems with airline security lie in the same as almost any security. The rules are different for those attacking vs. those defending. From the Byzantine empire to today, history shows that it is much more difficult to defend than to attack.

In defending an airline, the government must defend every plane at every airport across the US, and all planes coming from foreign countries. An attacker only needs to find a lapse in judgement in one airport, on one plane, or in one location in the security process.

The system is too complex. Any network administrator will tell you that it is much easier to "secure" a simpler network than a more complex one. The same goes with military bases, concert locations, airlines, and etc. A more secure solution would make things much simpler, slower, and much more expensive. The requirements would be too restrictive, and people would complain, but they would still fly because they had to. That is until the cost of a ticket rose to a price that excluded all but the rich from flying.

[TheCotMan]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

With the recent events in the news, how would people feel about airplane bathroom cameras?

Not worth the cost in lost privacy, and support. Cameras do no prevent crime, they provide an implied threat of retaliation as evidence for prosecution after a crime is committed. They have been shown to relocate crime, but not prevent it. To that end, a suicide bomber mixing chemicals in a airplane bathroom, once successful with their intent, won't be around to be prosecuted.

Why not just strip everyone naked and lock them in their seats? Frankly, the newest rules are just stupid, and aren't going to ensure safety, anymore than the older rules do. All these will do is further kill air travel.

People flying naked? More vomit bags -- err -- "Air Sickness" bags will be needed.

Oh bloody hell, should have listened to Cotman

I've not participated in this thread. What are you referring to?