Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

[beakmyn]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

Welcome to the world of international travel please check your constitutional/civil rights at the door.

Actually, it was reported today it's at the discretion of the airline to ban use of all electronic devices during the entire flight. I'm sure that will make everyone safer. They've already apparently shut off the audio/video system since it shows the GPS location of the airplane.


Please place your seat backs in their full upright position, stow all belongs and ensure your tray table is in the locked position. Your flight attendant will be around shortly to administer the Sodium thiopental. Enjoy your flight!


I got back from Taiwan on Wednesday before this all went down. Damn glad since I had my laptop, PDA and my Fonera out. :)

[AgentDarkApple]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

Not at all, I'm hoping more people start using it so that the price might go down a little bit. I was considering either taking a train or flying to Shmoo, but the new regulations (no electronics in carry on, mandatory pat down) are making me reconsider taking Amtrak.

Do you mean no electronics in carry-ons on Amtrak or on planes?

If they stop allowing electronics in carry-ons on planes, then people (including me) would think it was just their way of forcing us to pay for checking luggage. Whether I am going somewhere for a couple days or for a couple weeks, I still manage to only have a backpack (about half of which is filled with electronics) and no checked items other than my dog in his kennel.

I think this policy would actually DECREASE safety as 1) passengers accustomed to having laptops, iPods, etc. on long flights would now be bored and become agitated, especially if they are not allowed to leave their seats, which could trigger stress-induced violence or discord. Similarly, people who have flight-related anxiety would no longer have their electronic pacifiers to distract them from the situation and may have a massive freak-out. 2) Theft would increase because thieves could assume that at least every other piece of checked luggage contained some sort of laptop or other expensive electronic device. This would also likely lead to confrontation if someone sees his/her bag being stolen.

It would introduce a host of other problems as well, especially for businessmen/women. I have seen many who do their work on their laptops during the flights, send it to _whomever_ once they are back at the terminal with internet access, call someone about their next flight as soon as they land, etc. If their laptops and phones are in checked luggage where they cannot access them, then these people are sitting around all day, forced to have their once-productive hours wasted. Unless exceptions are made, military personnel acting as a courier for top secret information stored on hard drives would no longer be able to take civilian flights, as they are not allowed to let the briefcase out of their sight until they have safely turned it over to its intended destination. Kids who cannot watch Dora or Bob the Builder or whatever on their portable DVD players during a flight would throw massive fits due to a combination of boredom and having to sit still for so long with nothing to do. At this point, society is too wired to be forcefully unplugged like that.

Additionally, anyone wanting to "pat" me down may trigger this odd reflex that I have - if someone other than my husband tries to pat anything of mine, my response is an elbow to the ribs and a roundhouse to the head.

[g3k_]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

Do you mean no electronics in carry-ons on Amtrak or on planes?

Planes. I guess though I read it wrong on Consumerist, and it is only for International flights, but the problem I'm having is finding something official that says it. My RSS feed this morning had like 4 posts saying the "no electronics on international flights", but like I said, I can't find anything official.

The pat downs are random (EDIT: and I guess for international flights only as well), here are the new TSA guidelines:
http://www.tsa.gov/press/happenings/dec25_guidance.shtm

edit2: looks like all the new security measures are for international flights into the US. false alarm.

[beakmyn]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

Planes. I guess though I read it wrong on Consumerist, and it is only for International flights, but the problem I'm having is finding something official that says it. My RSS feed this morning had like 4 posts saying the "no electronics on international flights", but like I said, I can't find anything official.

The pat downs are random (EDIT: and I guess for international flights only as well), here are the new TSA guidelines:
http://www.tsa.gov/press/happenings/dec25_guidance.shtm

edit2: looks like all the new security measures are for international flights into the US. false alarm.

There is no official word. It's up the airline's discretion. The buzzword is unpredictable. If they rules are unpredictable then a terrorist won't take the chance. At least that's what the government wants us to think.

To add to it. I was told on Wednesday coming from Detroit that I could not check batteries containing lithium. Even Lith-ion. So, if I was going to gate check a bag I had to remove any batteries and carry them on board the plane with me.

[theprez98]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

Not since December 2001 when Richard Reid tried to light an explosive in his shoe has the TSA so blatantly closed the barn door long after the horse has gone. Because of Reid we are now, even eight years later, more likely than not required to take off our shoes when going through security, even though there is no evidence to suggest that any idiot would follow this same course of action.

The new TSA policy is stated below:

TSA issued a directive for additional security measures to be implemented for last point of departure international flights to the United States. Passengers flying into the United States from abroad can expect to see additional security measures at international airports such as increased gate screening including pat-downs and bag searches. During flight, passengers will be asked to follow flight crew instructions, such as stowing personal items, turning off electronic equipment and remaining seated during certain portions of the flight.

Based on the observations of people that have flown in the last few days, this has generally been perceived to mean that (at least for international flights inbound to the United States) during the last hour or so of the flight, passengers will be confined to their seats, with no access to the lavatories or their carry-on bags. Further, passengers will probably be prohibited from having anything on their laps or person--no pillows, blankets, laptops, etc. Apparently this because this is exactly what the suspect, Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, allegedly did. Because as you know, the next terrorist will do the exact same thing.

Surely, there is someone among the higher-ups in the TSA who is shaking his or her head at the absurdity of these new policies. Also, these measures will only serve to allow the public to further alienate themselves from flying in general; the nameless figureheads at TSA will be subject to criticism from afar (as I have done here), but the flight attendants will unfortunately bear the brunt of it up close and personal.

By the way, the explosive used by both Richard Reid and Umar Abdulmutallab was PETN, which would not be detected by a magnetometer. Not in 2001, not in 2009. So keep taking off those shoes for the nice folks in the security line.

[theprez98]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

The Odds of Airborne Terror

An interesting look at the mathematical odds behind airborne terror attacks.

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

Am I the only one who finds it ironic that Amtrak is looking appealing?

especially since they are going to allow us to carry our guns like airlines have for ages and ages now. of course, however, they are trying to implement it in the exact same manner as airports... which makes no damn sense. you can't hijack a train like you can a plane, nor disrupt its operational reliability by shooting holes in a window or anything. it should be a simple matter of keeping something locked and unloaded, like driving state to state... being forced to "declare" the firearm to someone makes no sense at all to me.

You want to be safe? Build a room, line it with cotton batting, and hire someone to spoon feed you baby food for the rest of your life. Just quit trying to protect ME. I don't want it.

i love you and i love this statement. may i quote you on it at some time in the future?

Actually, it was reported today it's at the discretion of the airline to ban use of all electronic devices during the entire flight. I'm sure that will make everyone safer.

see... how is that possible? federal regulations specify (i thought) when and how electronics can be used, which ones are allowed, etc. of course, you can be "ordered" to turn something off for a whole flight... but people often forget that with flight attendants, as well as even police officers, etc... you are only criminally liable to be charged if you disobey a legitimate order. Both a cop on the street and a flight attendant at 40,000 feet could "order" me to put on a clown suit and sing the Barney theme song, but i'm not facing criminal charges if i refuse... because that order has no bearing on the business they are charged with conducting.

being ordered to not use electronics when the plane is in a territory that the Fed and the FAA have declared safe for electronics smacks of an "illegitimate" order to me. then again, maybe i just sound like a whiny teenager.

They've already apparently shut off the audio/video system since it shows the GPS location of the airplane.

yeah, because knowing where the plane is in the sky really gives a lot of good intel to a potential threat actor. are they afraid of people using this data to plan when to rush the cockpit? the cockpits that nobody can actually open, anymore?

you might have warned me that it would go in the toilet

i, for one, thank you for starting this thread. i feel there has been a lot of good info here and good opinions being shared. if discussions like this were broadcast on C-Span once in a while, maybe the public could wise up a bit more about security matters.


my own side note #1 - can anyone tell me for certain right now what the policies are on most major airlines regarding electronics now? reports in the press are sketchy. in this thread there was mention at least once of no electronics in carryons at all and also some discussion of first hour/last hour/whole flight. anyone have hard details there as to what's actually going down?

my own side note #2 - i feel that something which has been lost a lot in recent conversations is the fact that it's really fucking hard to bring down a modern, commercial airliner. Hell, even Aloha 243 (which ripped apart in mid-air 20 years ago) was able to land safely. The amount of typical explosive necessary to actually bring down a modern aircraft is far, far more than an individual could smuggle aboard and assemble surreptitiously.

i'd personally like to see advances striven for in sniffer technology to detect explosive residue and other indicators of bombs, etc. loads and loads of that sort of screening, coupled with behavioral monitoring and no ID checks... that's my formula for security in the friendly skies.

[Melesse]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

There is no official word. It's up the airline's discretion. The buzzword is unpredictable. If they rules are unpredictable then a terrorist won't take the chance. At least that's what the government wants us to think.

Yea, I've seen several articles this morning that specifically mentioned that SOME airlines were implementing these policies domestically, since it was at their discretion. I'm struggling to find one now, there's so many articles listed now that they're lost in the Morass. Info-DOS.

In addition, the unpredictable rules part sounds very much like an excuse for airport security to do pretty much anything they want. This is one of those "Spider-man" great power moments. And somehow I don't think it's going to go the right way. It never seems to.

EDIT: Deviant, I saw in a couple places he had 80 grams of PETN on him. I started to attempt to look up detonation velocities and try and figure out approx. how much damage that would do, but then I realized after my search results came back with articles on how to MAKE PETN I shouldn't be doing that at work ><

Mel

[theprez98]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

see... how is that possible? federal regulations specify (i thought) when and how electronics can be used, which ones are allowed, etc. of course, you can be "ordered" to turn something off for a whole flight... but people often forget that with flight attendants, as well as even police officers, etc... you are only criminally liable to be charged if you disobey a legitimate order. Both a cop on the street and a flight attendant at 40,000 feet could "order" me to put on a clown suit and sing the Barney theme song, but i'm not facing criminal charges if i refuse... because that order has no bearing on the business they are charged with conducting.

I do not know the exact regulations (although I suspect I'll be looking them up), but I believe that federal law/regulations give flight attendants some latitude in what they can ask/demand of passengers, and those same regulations probably require you to follow their requests/demands. All in the name of safety, of course.

I'm not saying you are right or wrong, but do you want to be make a scene/be arrested/detained/taken of the plane so that you can have your day in court to talk about the legitimate nature of the flight attendant's request?

I'm as fired up about this as anyone, but making a scene in front of a flight attendant would not be my way of protesting these asinine policies. As I stated in my post above, the flight attendants are going to catch the brunt of the criticism for these new policies, and I think, wrongly so.

(I'm not suggesting that you would do this, just sayin'...)

However, I would like to see Deviant don a clown suit and sing the Barney theme song. Anyone else?

Edit: FAR Sec. 91.517 is a start, but not exactly what I'm looking for, yet, as it only applies to a few specific circumstances.

[TheCotMan]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

Am I the only one who finds it ironic that Amtrak is looking appealing?

I've looked into AmTrak to go to Defcon because of AC power, food car, and laptop friendly spaces, but it pretty much sucks. AmTrak service in the West doesn't include rail service to Las Vegas. You pretty much have to take an AmTrak bus to a railroad station or terminal, and then move to a train, and then move back to a bus to get to Las Vegas.

Add to this, the financial cost of tickets being about 3 to 4 times the cost to fly, and you see you are paying more for worse service, and a large amount of time stuck in a bus, which is like an airplane as far as seating, but with no food service.

If there was train service to Las Vegas on rail, without buses, and the price was close to flying (no more than 20% more) I'd be willing to spend more time traveling to Defcon on a train, where I could get data phone service, Internet access for my laptop, and AC power for the duration.

Some jets provide AC power for laptops and other electronic devices, and tests to provide Internet on-board flights were run.

Too bad AmTrak doesn't have rail service to/from major cities in the US.

[g3k_]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

Too bad AmTrak doesn't have rail service to/from major cities in the US.

Going offtopic: It is really a shame that we don't have a larger passenger train presence here in America, because a large part of our country was built on trains. In European (also Japan) countries, you can basically hop on a train to go anywhere, here it is much more difficult. I'm originally from NY, so we rode trains to the city and all over, but now I'm here in Florida, I've never actually seen a passenger train station. They are trying again for a bullet train system, but I think it is going to flop again.

[renderman]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

my own side note #1 - can anyone tell me for certain right now what the policies are on most major airlines regarding electronics now? reports in the press are sketchy. in this thread there was mention at least once of no electronics in carryons at all and also some discussion of first hour/last hour/whole flight. anyone have hard details there as to what's actually going down?

That's been part of the problem, making matters worse. I'm guessing that key people were off for the holidays and as such, no one was around to make quick decisive decisions and it fell to some underling on the graveyard shift to make a decision. I would expect some clarification this week once everyone is back in place but expect the final result to be more stupidity.

my own side note #2 - i feel that something which has been lost a lot in recent conversations is the fact that it's really fucking hard to bring down a modern, commercial airliner. Hell, even Aloha 243 (which ripped apart in mid-air 20 years ago) was able to land safely. The amount of typical explosive necessary to actually bring down a modern aircraft is far, far more than an individual could smuggle aboard and assemble surreptitiously.

I am interested as well what the results would be for both shoe boy and underwear boy's devices without the media hyperbole. Real science vs breathless flapping as to the effects on a plane at cruising speed and altitude. Such as the way that the liquid bombers plot was shown to be bupkiss since the chemistry they were attempting could not have, in any stretch of the imagination, been pulled off successfully in a plane.

I think the cheaper and easier solution to the problem of airplane security and safety is one of education of the public. As was noted earlier, it's a classic problem that you have to make sure 100% of all flights are secure. There is no fiesable way to accomplish that. What would be more effective is to educate the public that, it's the *most* secure and safe way to travel and that there is risk in everything. Hell if they have drugs and weapons in maximum security prisons, what hope in hell do you have of securing an airplane. Building a realistic expectation within the public and in decision makers is the only way all this could end in any sort of sane manner.

As George Carlin said very well when talking about Airline security almost 20 years ago, "take a fucking chance in your life" and accept that 500 miles an hour at 36,000 feet is not a natural habitat for a human being. A lot can go wrong in that situation, on even the best of days, to remind you that gravity is a bitch. You can remove as much of the risk as possible, but it is fundamentally impossible for it ever to be 100%. If you can't deal with that, then walk.

EDIT: Found this in my blog rounds and it makes some sense: http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/arc...ce_cream_cone/

anytime you create a large bureaucracy to deal with a specific problem, it is not in the interest of said bureaucracy for the root problem to go away. It always seeks to aggregate more power and funding so it in the end becomes a self licking ice cream cone. Prime examples are the DEA and TSA.

The rest of the post goes on to explain that there is no downside to overestimating the situation and over reacting, but there's big downsides to underestimating, so no one will do so or step up because of the 'just in case' scenario.

[beakmyn]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

Looks like Lifehacker is following up with some linky goodness:

http://lifehacker.com/5435342/the-ne...y-rules-so-far

Gizmodo's leaked TSA directive
http://gizmodo.com/5435188/leaked-ho...airplane-rules

[charliex]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

The only changes listed on BA.com and air canada are the one carry per customer, they're also saying that they're waiving the excess baggage fee in case you have to check in.

http://www.aircanada.com/en/news/trav_adv/091226_3.html
http://www.britishairways.com/travel...b?p_faqid=3939

[Chris]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

I've looked into AmTrak to go to Defcon because of AC power, food car, and laptop friendly spaces, but it pretty much sucks. AmTrak service in the West doesn't include rail service to Las Vegas. You pretty much have to take an AmTrak bus to a railroad station or terminal, and then move to a train, and then move back to a bus to get to Las Vegas.

Add to this, the financial cost of tickets being about 3 to 4 times the cost to fly, and you see you are paying more for worse service, and a large amount of time stuck in a bus, which is like an airplane as far as seating, but with no food service.

If there was train service to Las Vegas on rail, without buses, and the price was close to flying (no more than 20% more) I'd be willing to spend more time traveling to Defcon on a train, where I could get data phone service, Internet access for my laptop, and AC power for the duration.

Some jets provide AC power for laptops and other electronic devices, and tests to provide Internet on-board flights were run.

Too bad AmTrak doesn't have rail service to/from major cities in the US.

This is the problem for most of us. There is no legitimate alternative to flying commercially. Especially for work related travel. We find ourselves in the position of having to suck it up and do what we're told. Amtrak isn't a viable option. Driving is fine if the trip is less than 8 hours or so, but cross country? Forget it. Even if you were willing to drive 3-4 days to get from NY or DC to Vegas or LA, no way your employer would be willing to foot the bill for that (paying you for 6-8 days driving time, plus paying mileage, etc).