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  • #16
    Re: Google and China

    Assuming the access violations were government sanctioned, and the government controls law enforcement, what other option would they have?

    It would be like fighting a war where the enemy owns all grounds of contention, employs better spies than you, and more experienced generals and troops. Additionally, they can fathom google and identify motivation, direction and action. It is pretty easy to understand motivation with China, but the actions they will take are not understood by anyone else.

    Just as appropriate here: "Who watches the watchmen?"

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Google and China

      Originally posted by shrdlu View Post
      It's a business. It's about market share, and profits. I don't fault them for that, but I also think that the reasons for standing up to CN are pragmatic, not virtuous.
      I didn't want to be the first to say that, but I can't agree more. Google is a business, and it's it's a business decision, nothing more. The Chinese who seem to be all about business today, need to make up their minds whether they want free enterprise, or not.

      xor
      Last edited by xor; January 13, 2010, 20:32.
      Just because you can doesn't mean you should. This applies to making babies, hacking, and youtube videos.

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      • #18
        Re: Google and China

        Originally posted by TheCotMan View Post
        "Who watches the watchmen?"

        The watchy watchers, watch the watch-PEOPLE

        xor
        Just because you can doesn't mean you should. This applies to making babies, hacking, and youtube videos.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Google and China

          This is pretty fucking awesome... go Google:

          http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/n...-aftermath.ars

          Google's security team managed to penetrate one of the servers being used by the attackers, which was how the full extent of the attack—more than 30 companies—was revealed.
          Some real life CTF shit there

          http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8458269.stm

          It's estimated Google would've made $600 billion in China in 2010. To put that in perspective that's 10% of their 2008 operating income. This is clearly a decision that wasn't made lightly.

          It seems the State Department is none too happy about this:

          http://www.state.gov/secretary/rm/2010/01/135105.htm

          We have been briefed by Google on these allegations, which raise very serious concerns and questions. We look to the Chinese government for an explanation. The ability to operate with confidence in cyberspace is critical in a modern society and economy. I will be giving an address next week on the centrality of internet freedom in the 21st century, and we will have further comment on this matter as the facts become clear.
          I don't think this is going to end well. But hey, look on the bright side, the government may soon be hiring hackers for the upcoming cyber war
          Last edited by bascule; January 13, 2010, 20:48.
          45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B0
          45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B1
          [ redacted ]

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          • #20
            Re: Google and China

            According to NPR (Marketplace) this morning, Google has asked all workers at its Chinese offices to take some vacation time.

            This seems to add more weight to the non-economic motives argument. Google has determined that paying these workers to do nothing at all is more valuable than having them in the office? Something strange is going on.

            Possible explanations that I see (in no particular order):
            • Google believes that there is an insider threat in its Chinese offices
            • Google believes that there is a physical threat (includes police detention/questioning) to its offices and is trying to keep its workers safe.
            • Google is trying to signal to the Chinese government that it is serious about leaving, so the government better sit down at the bargaining table if they want to keep them around.

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            • #21
              Re: Google and China

              It seems to me that Google has already decided to leave; the overtures to the Chinese government are probably just a way to appear diplomatic.
              "\x74\x68\x65\x70\x72\x65\x7a\x39\x38";

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              • #22
                Re: Google and China

                McAfee has been referring to the hack as "Project Aurora" after a string found in one of the paths of the compiled executables used in the attack:

                http://www.techcrunch.com/2010/01/17...tion-aurora-2/

                Due to the scope of the attack and use of previously unreleased IE exploits in a targeted attack against multiple corporations, they're also calling it "a watershed moment in cybersecurity"

                Personally I think the policy implications of the aftermath are far more interesting than the attack itself
                45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B0
                45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B1
                [ redacted ]

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                • #23
                  Re: Google and China

                  Originally posted by SalusaSecondus View Post
                  From an economic perspective, all the motivation they need to pull out from China is if the cost of doing business there (Bad PR, Loss of IP, Security Response, etc.) is greater than their (expected) profits (which, from what I've heard, are low there). So, this could (to support shrdlu's cynicism) simply be a business decision + PR stunt. ("We're pulling out of China, how do we not make this look like a failure and retreat and possibly get some good will in the rest of the world ...?")
                  I think you hit the nail on the head there. It's more about them getting their asses handed to them by Baidu then suddenly, just now, realizing that the Chinese government is bad. But they need a way out that doesn't look like retreat.

                  Judging by some of the doe-eyed, chest clutching responses in this thread and across the Internet, I'd say they've managed to dupe enough folks to pull it off.

                  I return whatever i wish . Its called FREEDOWM OF RANDOMNESS IN A HECK . CLUSTERED DEFEATED CORn FORUM . Welcome to me

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                  • #24
                    Re: Google and China

                    Speculation that Google employees may have helped perpetrate the attack:

                    http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTOE60H07V20100118
                    45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B0
                    45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B1
                    [ redacted ]

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                    • #25
                      Re: Google and China

                      Originally posted by bascule View Post
                      Speculation that Google employees may have helped perpetrate the attack:

                      http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTOE60H07V20100118
                      Insider threat? Say it ain't so!
                      "\x74\x68\x65\x70\x72\x65\x7a\x39\x38";

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                      • #26
                        Re: Google and China

                        Well, well, well. Color me surprised. Not. My favorite bits from the Reuter's article that Bascule posted?

                        Local media, citing unnamed sources, reported that some Google China employees were denied access to internal networks after Jan. 13, while some staff were put on leave and others transferred to different offices in Google's Asia Pacific operations. Google said it would not comment on its business operations.
                        Oh, noes! So, it wasn't a vacation leave for everyone, then?

                        Looks like I have the appropriate amount of cynicism. Again.

                        Baidu 1, Google 0. Game, set, and match.

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                        • #27
                          Re: Google and China

                          I still think that one of the most interesting pieces of this is how public Google is being. No one that I've talked to is surprised that insiders may have been involved (and I even hypothesized a few posts ago that the enforced vacation was due to this exact issue).

                          This kind of public "Look at how we screwed up" really isn't common in the US, so the reasoning behind that needs to be examined. From what I've been reading about the finances involved, I'm not inclined to believe that this is simply due to being beat by Baidu. I am now relatively convinced that there was more going on than that.

                          I think we've got a few weeks before even the key points of this start leaking out and much longer before the full story is told. The pure economic argument just doesn't seem to hold up anymore.

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                          • #28
                            Re: Google and China

                            TechRepublic's take on it:
                            "How China exposed Google's hypocrisy"

                            http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/se...07&tag=nl.e036
                            Thorn
                            "If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning." - Catherine Aird

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                            • #29
                              Re: Google and China

                              this is a kind of limiting the freedom of expression....i hope they will set the parameters what should be blocked

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                              • #30
                                Re: Google and China

                                Google pulling out of china will cause a substantial amount of damage to china itself, since they are both a major producer, as well as a technologically dominant country, lossing 26 percent of your search engine capabilities will cause damage due to the fact that its major competitors there wont be able to handle just a massive increase in traffic right away.

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