I'm on TV! (commercial filming at defcon)

[kallahar]

So this year the rules about what the press could film changed. The old rules were "no crowd shots", "no people in the background", stuff like that. This year it was wide open.

So sunday I was walking out of the contest area and walk smack dab into a camera crew in the hallway doing an interview with someone. So they were getting on film everyone entering or leaving that doorway.

I didn't like it. I know that I'm probably on a lot of hobbyist videos on youtube, but getting onto TV news isn't something I ever want to do...

What's everyone think, good? bad? am I the only one that wants the old press rules back?

Kallahar

[Nikita]

Re: I'm on TV! (commercial filming at defcon)

So this year the rules about what the press could film changed. The old rules were "no crowd shots", "no people in the background", stuff like that. This year it was wide open.

After many many years of battling the photographers rights and asking politely for attendees to stop taking photos, we came to the realization.. which everyone in the free world understands.... You have no privacy in public. Simply put there are camera phones, pocket sized 8mp digital cameras, pen cams ( not that we saw anyone using them) and of course the fact that DEF CON is a spectator event itself makes us running around telling attendees to shut it down pointless and a waste of our time...it's grown too much to stop everyone from taking pictures. Why turn a blind eye to the public and then forbid press to do the same.

To be honest, all the other conferences allow and welcome press in to film their events, this is how the con spreads and grows. Good press is better than the mysterious "we can't show you the conference" because assuming everyone wants to hide their hacker identity.
I know *Some* of you want the small close knit group of the days of old, but times change, a new generation is moving in and you are being the equivalent of grandpa screaming " get off my lawn" Yeah, you can't buy a gallon of gas for a dollar and in your day there were less than 100 attendees, we get it. There is no where to go but UP, we are growing, 10k strong this year, we are expanding the show, we are moving to bigger and better hotels and we are offering you MORE for your money than you EVER paid in the past. Why not document and share the images of those not able to attend? Remember looking through defcon.pics when you came home to see if *someone* got a pic of you eating a 50lb in and out burger or that kick ass demo in the hardware village? Or maybe you were stuck at home and couldn't come for whatever reason, weren't you curious what happened?

What about the people who haven't heard of the con yet and run across us because we are featured on the news in a ( FAVORABLE Light) clip? ( Yes, we do work with press still to make sure they aren't publishing crap willy nilly) The word gets out, the Newbies come, and the newbies SHARE info which we all benefit from. We get new people interested, we get new speakers, we get new feedback, we get new contribution, we get new friends. Everyone should be able to experience this Con and fall in love with it, just like you did ten years earlier.

The photography rules were updated to reflect your rights and to get with the times. Press really did not take advantage of the new rules despite your interaction, they were still very much under the wing of our press goons to make sure they were behaving themselves and they did.

I quote http://www.usatoday.com/tech/columni...y-rights_x.htm Which expresses the photographers rights pretty clearly. I know it's not legal code, but it's laymans terms and pretty clear, do a google search or read the links in this article to learn more about your rights as a photographer.

The law in the United States of America is pretty simple. You are allowed to photograph anything with the following exceptions:

• Certain military installations or operations.

• People who have a reasonable expectation of privacy. That is, people who are some place that's not easily visible to the general public, e.g., if you shoot through someone's window with a telephoto lens.

There is NO reasonable expectation of privacy at DEF CON and I struggle with the thought that anyone would expect any privacy in a Las Vegas Casinos at all.

For those who missed the signs, put by registration, the contest area, etc. Here were the rules.

Public photography is now *allowed.
RULES:

1. Groups, "crowd shots", and individuals participating in public events, contests, or activities are *allowed to be photographed.(excluding CTF)

2.Respect the rights of the individual not to be photographed. Do not harass, stalk, or annoy others, deletion of photos can be requested by staff.

3.Photograph private parties & areas outside of the badged conference area AT YOUR OWN RISK.

You consent to these rules with admission to the conference, failure to comply can result in revocation of admissions without refund. *We reserve the right to revoke this policy, at any time, on a case by case basis.

Hope this clears it up as far as the policy is concerned, and do understand that my commentary on the matter are my views and not necessarily the views of my peers at DEF CON.

[Chris]

Re: I'm on TV! (commercial filming at defcon)

<snipped a bunch of stuff because it was long>
</snip>

I am 99.8% cool with the new photography rules. the .2% comes from this:

Why is CTF different? It is supposedly THE premiere contest/event at DEF CON and everything you said above (and I snipped out) applies. What's good for Joe Attendee is good for CTF. If you are so uber 1337 and awesome that you don't want your picture taken you're probably going to win, and then you'll get your picture taken at closing so what's the difference?

I say if we are going to make it ok to photo the staff/attendees/speakers/every other contest participant then we need to make CTF play by the same rules.

[phaktor]

Re: I'm on TV! (commercial filming at defcon)

I am 99.8% cool with the new photography rules. the .2% comes from this:

Why is CTF different? It is supposedly THE premiere contest/event at DEF CON and everything you said above (and I snipped out) applies. What's good for Joe Attendee is good for CTF. If you are so uber 1337 and awesome that you don't want your picture taken you're probably going to win, and then you'll get your picture taken at closing so what's the difference?

I say if we are going to make it ok to photo the staff/attendees/speakers/every other contest participant then we need to make CTF play by the same rules.

Speaking as a CTFer, (ACME PHARM) it is to stop people from taking pictures of screens ie having a fake camera crew analyzing what exploit your team is working on etc... or so I guess.

We were told when camera crews were coming through the CTF area, but they were told no screen pictures. we also had to kick some random guy out of our area as he just thought he could come in and start looking over peoples shoulders.

[russ]

Re: I'm on TV! (commercial filming at defcon)

Is it the players in CTF that don't want their picture taken? Or the organizers? I tend to agree that players should be willing to be photographed if everyone else at Defcon is held to that.

But, I suppose if someone is using camera flashes in my face while I'm trying to compete/think in that dark room, it would get distracting. Do you think it's too much to let the teams decide for themselves? Maybe they get a "No Photography" sign that they put up on the table when they don't want to be photographed? Then teams that want the spotlight can get some pics?

-Russ

[Chris]

Re: I'm on TV! (commercial filming at defcon)

Speaking as a CTFer, (ACME PHARM) it is to stop people from taking pictures of screens ie having a fake camera crew analyzing what exploit your team is working on etc... or so I guess.

But then why not oCTF? Or any other contest at defcon where people use a computer with some form of display?

[Chris]

Re: I'm on TV! (commercial filming at defcon)

Is it the players in CTF that don't want their picture taken? Or the organizers? I tend to agree that players should be willing to be photographed if everyone else at Defcon is held to that.

But, I suppose if someone is using camera flashes in my face while I'm trying to compete/think in that dark room, it would get distracting. Do you think it's too much to let the teams decide for themselves? Maybe they get a "No Photography" sign that they put up on the table when they don't want to be photographed? Then teams that want the spotlight can get some pics?

-Russ

If we do that, can we let the attendees wear a big ass "Don't take pictures of me" sign? And enforce it? Because wouldn't we also have to enforce it in the CTF room?

[russ]

Re: I'm on TV! (commercial filming at defcon)

If we do that, can we let the attendees wear a big ass "Don't take pictures of me" sign? And enforce it? Because wouldn't we also have to enforce it in the CTF room?

Make it the new badge! :-)

[streaker69]

Re: I'm on TV! (commercial filming at defcon)

Make it the new badge! :-)

Nah, here's the perfect solution. Anyone that doesn't want photographed can wear this:

http://media.photobucket.com/image/u...nown-comic.jpg

Now, you kids, get off my lawn!

[WiK]

Re: I'm on TV! (commercial filming at defcon)

Make it the new badge! :-)

I don't think I have been around long enough to weigh in on this, however I don't understand why this is such an issue. It seems as simple as "Please do not take pictures of electronic screens" and then CTF and anyone else using an ipad or competing in oCTF would be covered. The few pictures I did take, I made an attempt to make it known so that those not wanting in the shot could move out of the way, and not once did anyone have a problem.

[Nikita]

Re: I'm on TV! (commercial filming at defcon)

Both Russ and Chris are right and on to something. The reason why CTF was excluded this year is we simply didn't give them enough advance notice that it didn't seem right. There has been a longstanding unwritten rule NO pictures in the CTF room. It's been a do it and hope you don't get caught attitude in every other area of con, but in the CTF room they watch you like hawks, confrontations are far more likely and people get really *really* pissed if you film them in any capacity playing CTF. This has just been how it was all the way back and how they expect it to be. I know when I played in CTF at the AP, you'd hear it yelled once an hour NO PICTURES! People are afraid of loosing their jobs if they are seen participating in the worlds toughes hacker (oooh scary) competition.

Ctf is the 1337 contest, it's the CTF that all other CTF's model after and frankly put our CTF is the mothertrucking shiznit. BUT...it didn't seem fair, without giving them heads up and to allow feedback from the CTF organizers to throw this policy on them last minute. All the other departments, honestly, they are used to people taking pictures. Around the contest area has always had camera phones and people snapping pics and it was a way easier policy change for contests to deal with ( and enforce per the rules below on case-by case) than to throw it onto CTF, who would have never seen it coming. Frankly, they have always lived in a sheltered room with their privacy being held pretty tight. PLUS. Press loves the crap out of CTF, they ALWAYS want to go in there and we've always told them no unless we work it out for them with strict conditions being met. To open it up all willy nilly, would be exactly as you said, flashes and a big ass camera in your face when you are trying to work.

As for the policy moving forward, we've had no complaints thus far, and feedback like Kallhars is totally welcome some things we can fix, others we cant. CTF photography is tricky, but like you said, should be made available within reasonable limits. Cooperation with the CTF organizers and giving them a heads up for next year should also be a part of that plan. :-) Let me know what you think guys.

[streaker69]

Re: I'm on TV! (commercial filming at defcon)

kallahar,

I'm curious as to the issue with you ending up in a commercial. Chances are, people that know you will recognize you. If I were to see it, I probably wouldn't know you from Paris Hilton.

Most people watching it are just going to see anonymous people in black tshirts leaving a convention and never give it a second thought.

[Chris]

Re: I'm on TV! (commercial filming at defcon)

Both Russ and Chris are right and on to something. The reason why CTF was excluded this year is we simply didn't give them enough advance notice that it didn't seem right. There has been a longstanding unwritten rule NO pictures in the CTF room. It's been a do it and hope you don't get caught attitude in every other area of con, but in the CTF room they watch you like hawks, confrontations are far more likely and people get really *really* pissed if you film them in any capacity playing CTF. This has just been how it was all the way back and how they expect it to be. I know when I played in CTF at the AP, you'd hear it yelled once an hour NO PICTURES! People are afraid of loosing their jobs if they are seen participating in the worlds toughes hacker (oooh scary) competition.

Ctf is the 1337 contest, it's the CTF that all other CTF's model after and frankly put our CTF is the mothertrucking shiznit. BUT...it didn't seem fair, without giving them heads up and to allow feedback from the CTF organizers to throw this policy on them last minute. All the other departments, honestly, they are used to people taking pictures. Around the contest area has always had camera phones and people snapping pics and it was a way easier policy change for contests to deal with ( and enforce per the rules below on case-by case) than to throw it onto CTF, who would have never seen it coming. Frankly, they have always lived in a sheltered room with their privacy being held pretty tight. PLUS. Press loves the crap out of CTF, they ALWAYS want to go in there and we've always told them no unless we work it out for them with strict conditions being met. To open it up all willy nilly, would be exactly as you said, flashes and a big ass camera in your face when you are trying to work.

As for the policy moving forward, we've had no complaints thus far, and feedback like Kallhars is totally welcome some things we can fix, others we cant. CTF photography is tricky, but like you said, should be made available within reasonable limits. Cooperation with the CTF organizers and giving them a heads up for next year should also be a part of that plan. :-) Let me know what you think guys.

Seems fair to me. My name is Chris and I approve of this post.

[russ]

Re: I'm on TV! (commercial filming at defcon)

kallahar,

I'm curious as to the issue with you ending up in a commercial. Chances are, people that know you will recognize you. If I were to see it, I probably wouldn't know you from Paris Hilton.

Most people watching it are just going to see anonymous people in black tshirts leaving a convention and never give it a second thought.

I'd like to go on record that I can certainly tell the difference between Kallahar and Paris Hilton. Just so that's clear.

-Russ

[Nikita]

Re: I'm on TV! (commercial filming at defcon)

Nah, here's the perfect solution. Anyone that doesn't want photographed can wear this:

http://media.photobucket.com/image/u...nown-comic.jpg

Now, you kids, get off my lawn!

Haha. That reminds me, there was a guy at con with a skull bandanna over his face. He was wearing it as if he was an Anarchist at WTO or a super leet hacker the face of the underground trying to hide. It was a bit overkill and EVERYTIME I saw him I cringed and WANTED to take his picture at the same time. It's like he's trying to say YES I HAVE SOMETHING TO FEAR LOOK AT ME LOOK AT ME. Really dude, you are not that special, no one cares, you are not a special snowflake and all you are doing is drawing attention to yourself. Plus...you are intentionally hiding your face in Las Vegas....say hello to every camera watching you and every act you do suspect. Neil put it best....Ever hear of Hiding in plain sight.

But...I'm a twat and I don't like people.