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I'm on TV! (commercial filming at defcon)

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  • #16
    Re: I'm on TV! (commercial filming at defcon)

    Originally posted by Chris View Post
    I am 99.8% cool with the new photography rules. the .2% comes from this:

    Why is CTF different? It is supposedly THE premiere contest/event at DEF CON and everything you said above (and I snipped out) applies. What's good for Joe Attendee is good for CTF. If you are so uber 1337 and awesome that you don't want your picture taken you're probably going to win, and then you'll get your picture taken at closing so what's the difference?

    I say if we are going to make it ok to photo the staff/attendees/speakers/every other contest participant then we need to make CTF play by the same rules.
    I agree with this 100%. I respect the desire to prevent "screenshots" (would it even help?) but CTF is no different from everyone else. Same rules for everyone...
    "\x74\x68\x65\x70\x72\x65\x7a\x39\x38";

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    • #17
      Re: I'm on TV! (commercial filming at defcon)

      Originally posted by theprez98 View Post
      I agree with this 100%. I respect the desire to prevent "screenshots" (would it even help?) but CTF is no different from everyone else. Same rules for everyone...
      Why not use screen view angle reducing film?
      Originally posted by Ellen
      Do I wish we could all be like hexjunkie? Heck yes I do. :) That would rock.

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      • #18
        Re: I'm on TV! (commercial filming at defcon)

        Originally posted by hexjunkie View Post
        Why not use screen view angle reducing film?
        Or make it a rule that everyone that participates in CTF has to use a Braille Display Matrix.
        A third party security audit is the IT equivalent of a colonoscopy. It's long, intrusive, very uncomfortable, and when it's done, you'll have seen things you really didn't want to see, and you'll never forget that you've had one.

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        • #19
          Re: I'm on TV! (commercial filming at defcon)

          Rather than a legal issue, it's one of respect. There are people who prefer to not be photographed for whatever reason. Grey and I are very diligent about asking to take photo's of people, even of friends.

          Press and professional photographers taking shots is cool, however there needs to be some code of conduct established:

          1. Long shots, like from a skybox, where if you are in the crowd, your basically an unrecognizable bunch of pixels are cool.

          2. When framing a shot, cover only the people and things that have given permission, be aware of backgrounds and avoid covering beyond the 'permission area'

          3. Related to #2 is for interviews, don't stand them in a hallway with people milling bout behind, find a corner where you wont have people accidentally covered.

          4. If your on stage, your fair game. Speakers, and contests that are on stage are fair game in my opinion. Smaller events, that can be determined by organizers.

          5. Events, contest tables specifically should have the option of an official 'No photography period' or a 'No press' sign that press are made aware of to respect. Nothing worse than being in a contest and having some reporter distract you to ask questions.

          6. Given the size of professional quality video cameras is now bordering on the nano size, I'll reiterate something I posted years ago. Make press wear bright orange prison issue jumpsuits. If your in a room, it would be really helpful to know who's press at a glance and make your choice then. Sadly, this may end up being a scarlet letter, but some sort of larger identification than an easily obscured badge would help alot.

          We have a weird relationship with the press. They want stories, and hackers are great for that. We also need them to send out a message that we are not the threat people think we are. With a few exceptions (*Cough* dateline *Cough*) there haven't been many 'hit pieces' over the years in the grand scheme. What has been an issue is people not realizing they were talking to a reporter and saying something stupid or out of context. Given that the crowd has gone more polo shirt and khaki lately, I can understand this being an issue.

          Back to the point, it's about a balance of respect. The press has a right to be there, but they need to respect that some people dont want to deal with them and should have the option of avoiding them. I think that everyone can win if we agree on a code of conduct.

          Thoughts?
          Never drink anything larger than your head!





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          • #20
            Re: I'm on TV! (commercial filming at defcon)

            [QUOTE=Nikita;117229]Haha. That reminds me, there was a guy at con with a skull bandanna over his face. He was wearing it as if he was an Anarchist at WTO or a super leet hacker the face of the underground trying to hide. It was a bit overkill and EVERYTIME I saw him I cringed and WANTED to take his picture at the same time. It's like he's trying to say YES I HAVE SOMETHING TO FEAR LOOK AT ME LOOK AT ME.

            Actually he did get get snapped by someone and may have been in my clips filming the DJ's in the Capri.
            31 6E 66 33 63 37 33 64 20 62 79 20 74 68 33 20 70 68 31 6C 30 73 30 70 68 79 20 30 66 20 4A 30 68 6E 6E 79 20 4C 30 6E 67

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            • #21
              Re: I'm on TV! (commercial filming at defcon)

              Originally posted by Nikita View Post
              Haha. That reminds me, there was a guy at con with a skull bandanna over his face. He was wearing it as if he was an Anarchist at WTO or a super leet hacker the face of the underground trying to hide. It was a bit overkill and EVERYTIME I saw him I cringed and WANTED to take his picture at the same time. It's like he's trying to say YES I HAVE SOMETHING TO FEAR LOOK AT ME LOOK AT ME.Really dude, you are not that special, no one cares, you are not a special snowflake and all you are doing is drawing attention to yourself. Plus...you are intentionally hiding your face in Las Vegas....say hello to every camera watching you and every act you do suspect. Neil put it best....Ever hear of Hiding in plain sight.
              Nikita is right about being watched...
              Intentionally hiding your face or partially covering your face while in a casino, is a big watch me the entire time I'm on property and let security know what I look like & where I'm at flag. And if you ever uncover your face while on property, it's a suprise we now have a face shot and you get entered into our persons-of-interest book.
              “If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.” - Dalai Lama (Seattle Times, 05-15-2001).

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              • #22
                Re: I'm on TV! (commercial filming at defcon)

                Interesting... so what I'm hearing here is that at a *hacker* conference, where people divulge exploits in which entry can be made into just about anything, cellphone communications are intercepted or disrupted and there's a guy running around with a big nerf looking gun which grabs peoples wifi/bluetooth information from their phones and computers and then potentially posts it up on a "Wall Of Sheep" .. but the concern is RIGHT TO PRIVACY when it comes to YOUR picture? It's ironic in the same sense of the EFF getting so much support from those that are doing all the privacy invading! And I dont mean the Fed's. Hahahaha!

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                • #23
                  Re: I'm on TV! (commercial filming at defcon)

                  I'm going to have to agree with Render that it's a respect issue. I'll even go as far as to say it's a common courtesy issue. Have the decency to obscure faces of those you accidentally photograph if you don't know weather they are cool with it or not. Yes, bandanna-boy, counter productive, you are simply calling undue attention to yourself. Some things are fair game, those on stage unless the event states no photography for example. However, even then, if someone asks you to either not photograph them or to obscure their face, their reasons are their own, and that should be respected. My 2 cents, YMMV, etc.

                  [Edit; addition]
                  You're missing the point, xniko. Everyone attending DEFCON should know that anything you send over the air is open to interception. It is expected that if you don't take steps to secure your data anywhere, hacker con or not, it's open to attack. a picture of someone is not the same as that person's packets going over open airwaves.
                  Last edited by sintax_error; September 1, 2010, 18:16.
                  "You have cubed asscheeks?"... "Do you not?"

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                  • #24
                    Re: I'm on TV! (commercial filming at defcon)

                    Not the same? I agree. My face is out in the open in plain view for all to see. No expectation of privacy there. If I dont want my face seen or photographed, I can stay home. However, a hacker con or not, I'm pretty sure you do in fact have a reasonable expectation of privacy of the contents INSIDE your phone or computer. We all hoot and haw when the EFF tells us about "DA MAN" gaining access to our private info using silly things like subpoena's and court orders to catch badguys and terrorists and porno dudes but then congratulate each other on a hack well done when we gain access into someones system. Is that a double standard? I'm not being sarcastic, I am really failing to see the major differences between the two.

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                    • #25
                      Re: I'm on TV! (commercial filming at defcon)

                      Originally posted by xniko View Post
                      Not the same? I agree. My face is out in the open in plain view for all to see. No expectation of privacy there. If I dont want my face seen or photographed, I can stay home. However, a hacker con or not, I'm pretty sure you do in fact have a reasonable expectation of privacy of the contents INSIDE your phone or computer. We all hoot and haw when the EFF tells us about "DA MAN" gaining access to our private info using silly things like subpoena's and court orders to catch badguys and terrorists and porno dudes but then congratulate each other on a hack well done when we gain access into someones system. Is that a double standard? I'm not being sarcastic, I am really failing to see the major differences between the two.
                      But, once you broadcast information over the airwaves, it's no longer inside your computer, is it? Therefore it's fair game to whomever intercepts it. No one is talking about hacking your box directly, it's about what's transmitted.
                      A third party security audit is the IT equivalent of a colonoscopy. It's long, intrusive, very uncomfortable, and when it's done, you'll have seen things you really didn't want to see, and you'll never forget that you've had one.

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                      • #26
                        Re: I'm on TV! (commercial filming at defcon)

                        OK. Fair enough. But with that logic.. you are out in the open at a public event, so I should be able to photo you with no issues, correct? Your facial patterns are freely traveling within my field of view, undesguised, so I guess I can intercept.. Hahahah

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                        • #27
                          Re: I'm on TV! (commercial filming at defcon)

                          Originally posted by xniko View Post
                          OK. Fair enough. But with that logic.. you are out in the open at a public event, so I should be able to photo you with no issues, correct? Your facial patterns are freely traveling within my field of view, undesguised, so I guess I can intercept.. Hahahah
                          That's pretty much what everyone has been saying.

                          But how can you be so sure that people aren't wearing a disguise? It takes me a long time to get this beard looking natural.
                          A third party security audit is the IT equivalent of a colonoscopy. It's long, intrusive, very uncomfortable, and when it's done, you'll have seen things you really didn't want to see, and you'll never forget that you've had one.

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                          • #28
                            Re: I'm on TV! (commercial filming at defcon)

                            I'll add that as the guy in the EL wire coat glowing throughout friday night, I am well aware that doing something that attracts attention comes with certain responsibilities and a loss of some anonymity.


                            I think the big issue is, as Sintax mentioned, common courtesy.
                            Never drink anything larger than your head!





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                            • #29
                              Re: I'm on TV! (commercial filming at defcon)

                              I don't want to keep beating a dead horse and as such I will concede to the issue of courtesy. My issue is what is covered under that "courtesy"? You can secretly read the information that I have hidden in my cellphone in my pocket without asking my permission, but to take a photo of you is out of bounds?

                              I really am NOT trying to be a pain in the ass here. I am just trying to understand the collective mindset here.

                              I was under the impression that most "hackers" do so for exploration and that the mantra is that "Information wants to be free" or something to that effect. So then why is it that what is good for the goose is in fact NOT good for the gander?

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                              • #30
                                Re: I'm on TV! (commercial filming at defcon)

                                Originally posted by xniko View Post
                                I don't want to keep beating a dead horse and as such I will concede to the issue of courtesy. My issue is what is covered under that "courtesy"? You can secretly read the information that I have hidden in my cellphone in my pocket without asking my permission, but to take a photo of you is out of bounds?

                                I really am NOT trying to be a pain in the ass here. I am just trying to understand the collective mindset here.

                                I was under the impression that most "hackers" do so for exploration and that the mantra is that "Information wants to be free" or something to that effect. So then why is it that what is good for the goose is in fact NOT good for the gander?

                                I think the general mindset of the group is that the assembled crowd at the con should know enough to secure their shit so the point is moot. Yes there are newbies there to learn, but one assumes and hopes that they know that if they don't know enough to secure it, don't bring it.

                                WiFi sniffing: Use a VPN, use the secure network, or just dont use it at all.

                                Bluetooth sniffing: Why are you discoverable and using a default PIN?

                                Laptop: If you are'nt running a firewall and are running vulnerable services, why are you connecting to the most hostile network on the planet?

                                If you are broadcasting your information in the clear to everyone in the room, you have no expectation of privacy, hence the wall of sheep.

                                You seem to think there is some sort of magic skill we have where there is no defense and no hope and by simple proximity to one of us, we can read everything on every device you have including your wallet. Last I checked, I missed the breakout session that taught that skill.

                                In general, you can secure your technology, securing your face is a bit trickier (with the exception of mask boy, but in the vegas heat, that can't be fun), hence our efforts to find a balance to ensure privacy (like the wall of sheep obscuring some characters) and the realities of the situation.
                                Never drink anything larger than your head!





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