Admission Fee for DEFCON 19 Shoot?

[Deviant Ollam]

I was going to wait until the new year to post this, since that's when i'm going to get seriously underway with planning the next DC Shoot... but since it's on my mind and since i'm posting elsewhere on the forums, i figured i'd toss this out here.

The DEFCON Shoot last year was amazing. It was fun, it was safe, and it gave a lot of folk the chance to shoot off some rounds from steel that they wouldn't otherwise be able to handle most of the time.

That said, the event has grown to the point that it's not going to be fun or safe for much longer unless i seriously start establishing some rules, logistics, and significant staffing. None of that is going to be able to take place without a little overhead.

I am considering establishing a semi-formal system of registration and admission to the DEFCON Shoot (for a nearly nominal fee like $5 to $10) in order to be able to properly regulate the whole affair and keep everyone on the line happy and safe.

i NEED to be able to get a handle on how many people may be coming in order to estimate staff and prepare the necessary spaces on the firing line, etc.

i hate the idea of charging, even if it's just a few bucks, but frankly i don't see any other way of getting some certainty on the numbers in advance of the event. do you?


before people start posting frowny-faces, let me fill you in on some of the things that i have planned for the DC Shoot this coming year, so that you'll know what this new small hurdle is buying you...

1. proper, established shooting positions on the two primary ranges. - on either side of "the big hill" there will be marked and regulated shooting lanes. participants will have specific personal space, and most likely there will be small tables and such for gear and organization. no more standing on top of your own Pelican cases or jostling with your neighbors for room on the line.

2. The Shoot Shop - we've talked about it in the past, now it will be officially present. i am going to set up a stand where people can not only buy ammo (you can request ammo in advance or buy some of the surplus of common calibers we will have present) but also obtain water, maybe granola bars, sunscreen, bug spray, and other such items. out of concern for safety, there will also be at least one huge cooler of water that will simply be publicly available, along with some gun oil and basic tools if people have to service their firearms. people who pre-order a DC Shoot Shirt will be able to claim it at the Shoot Shop, and a couple extras may be there, as well.

3. Dedicated, Compensated Staff - along with the costs of renting some little pop-up tents for the shoot shop and such, the other biggest expense is going to become the cost of RSOs. All of my volunteers in the past have been wonderful, and i'm sure that many will be equally dedicated in future events... but it's gotten beyond what i can legitimately ask anyone to do pro bono. Instead of asking people to give up shooting time and just watch others when they have a moment, i am going to set up a solid schedule of many folk who are going to be properly compensated for their efforts. we will have orange vests and hats for all of them, and i'll even look into some form of communication (can anyone donate radios?)


what are people's thoughts here? how many of you saw the event this past summer? wouldn't you agree that we're at a breaking point now unless we establish some significant rules and logistics to control the crowd?


NOTE - the DEFCON Shoot is held on public land, and as such we are not in a position to bar anyone from entry or from shooting on their own. what we can do, however, is establish our own main range area in the prime location and instruct all others (people who appear without being on the sign-up list) to go much further down, away from us, and conduct their affairs in a way that doesn't interfere with our event.

[sintax_error]

Re: Admission Fee for DEFCON 19 Shoot?

I'm on board. The DC18 shoot was my first, and certainly won't be my last. I will agree that it was a hell of a lot more crowded than I personally expected, and on that front, regulation is going to end up being a must. Besides, $5-$10 is usually less that what we're going to end up paying at a "real" range, and with what you're proposing, a hell of a lot more bang for the buck.

[AmazonV]

Re: Admission Fee for DEFCON 19 Shoot?

Sounds more than reasonable - as a slight aside how were you thinking about marking lanes, and i assume you'd still want everyone to still bring targets and target holders?

[sintax_error]

Re: Admission Fee for DEFCON 19 Shoot?

Sounds more than reasonable - as a slight aside how were you thinking about marking lanes, and i assume you'd still want everyone to still bring targets and target holders?

I'd imagine that biodegradable marking paint or some such. $6 worth is more than enough to mark out the entire area and it would take all of 5 minutes to do. Les of a trip hazard than twine as well.

[The_Schiz]

Re: Admission Fee for DEFCON 19 Shoot?

DC18 was my first Defcon, and I actually didn't hear about the DC shoot until after the fact, but I'm definitely interested in participating. I don't see anything wrong with a nominal fee either. For crying out loud it costs me between 50 and 125 bucks every time I go to my local range for ammo and weapons. (I realize that the DC shoot is kind of a bring your own). Anyhow, if you need (and I can even make it to DC19, that's still up in the air), I'm willing to help you out as an RSO. I'm not sure what you'd be looking for as to my qualifications in that regard.

Before I help you out in the think tank on firing lanes, what are your options? From a legal standpoint I mean. A little plywood could go a long way towards setting up some pretty nice lanes. Though Sintax_Error's idea of biodegradable paint would be quite a bit cheaper. Could always borrow some orange cones from somewhere and put up a little caution tape.

[15289577]

Re: Admission Fee for DEFCON 19 Shoot?

I don't see a problem with a fee in exchange for the organization, the oversight of the safety officers and also for the purchase of any other safety equipment deemed necessary. I also like the idea of the shoot shop. Plenty of people every year show up without ear plugs and safety glasses, which are necesseties, even if you are not shooting. Other things that could be at the shop include water/gatorade and a few packaged snacks, ammo, any additional/old DC shoot shirts that were not sold...

[Gigs]

Re: Admission Fee for DEFCON 19 Shoot?

I'm on board with all of that. The crowding wasn't good, and I felt bad when I jostled other people's equipment trying to move around and find a spot. Took a few pieces of hot brass to the face, but that was mostly my own fault.


The questions that come to my mind:
If there were lanes, does that put a hard limit on the number of shooters that can be registered? Would the lanes be "assigned" or would people take turns? What about groups/non-shooting spectators?

I think painted lanes would be better than physical separators. If someone is doing something stupid, it's a lot better for the guy next to them to be able to see it and let them know, rather than relying on a RSO to spot it from behind.

[The_Schiz]

Re: Admission Fee for DEFCON 19 Shoot?

If we went with biodegradable paint we could easily add lanes as we added shooters. Long as we still had paint anyway. I know at my local range we don't really assign lanes. You pick one that's open, and when the line is cold you put your target up at the end. Long as that's your target, that's your lane. Unless you want to swap with somebody, and that's usually not a problem. The only "Dedicated" lane as it were is on the far right, for whenever somebody has the AK-47, as that thing spits shells with a vengeance.

Which brings up another thing that we might want to consider when spacing out the lanes, or positioning them is how far somebody's flinging brass. (or in the case of a Kalashnikov, steel).

[astcell]

Re: Admission Fee for DEFCON 19 Shoot?

I went to the DC18 shoot, my first one, with an assortment of firearms. The idea of charging for ammo for reimbursement was a good idea from Roamer and a nightmare to manage. I ended with with $9 and over 1000 rounds not fired by me by the end of it. Plenty of people either felt they were entitled or were simply rude. They just make it harder for me to be a sweet guy this year is all. I plan to bring some firearms again, as well as my high speed camera (see my youtube posts!) and plenty of ammo. I want to be nice, really, but guns ain't cheap and it is not fun cleaning them. I think folks who show up to use the toys of others need a lesson in etiquette.

Deviant, I am a tad choosy about what ammo goes through my firearms, how will you manage that for everyone?

[Gigs]

Re: Admission Fee for DEFCON 19 Shoot?

I ended with with $9 and over 1000 rounds not fired by me by the end of it. Plenty of people either felt they were entitled or were simply rude.

How were you managing that? A bunch of magazines and an open case of ammo, load your own mag?

I think some people who don't own guns might not understand what ammo costs these days. Whenever I take my non-shooting friends out shooting they always seem a little shocked when I tell them it's 30 cents (or whatever) every time you pull the trigger.

An official ammo sales area would probably help there, at least it would give people an idea of what things cost.

[astcell]

Re: Admission Fee for DEFCON 19 Shoot?

How were you managing that? A bunch of magazines and an open case of ammo, load your own mag?

I think some people who don't own guns might not understand what ammo costs these days. Whenever I take my non-shooting friends out shooting they always seem a little shocked when I tell them it's 30 cents (or whatever) every time you pull the trigger.

An official ammo sales area would probably help there, at least it would give people an idea of what things cost.

I showed up with 30 round mags loaded, 1500 rounds in stripper clips for 223, and 45 ammo in magazines. Only the 38 and shotgun needed to be loaded slower. I was happy to load for people but when they put the gun down and walked away I had to wonder about their integrity. Come to think of it, a guy had me promise to save half my room for him and he flaked too. Too many flakes.

[Picch]

Re: Admission Fee for DEFCON 19 Shoot?

I have no problems with a nominal fee. Last year did have a lot of overcrowding, I know myself and my two friends had to take turns on the firing line. But other than that, I had a blast and I know they did too. I think the only "shit might get real" moment I noticed was when the person shooting next to me's AR seriously jammed a live round. But the RSO and a couple of others quickly took it back away from everyone else behind a hill

I can't remember if this happened or not last year but during the announcements about safety, etc... perhaps something should be said about the cost of ammo, and that those looking to get some time on someone's gun better be prepared to shell out a few bucks as a common courtesy. I know me personally, I have no problem trading time as well...A magazine on one of my pieces for a magazine on one of yours.

An admission fee might also curb some of the "freeloading" as well, as an unintended consequence.

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: Admission Fee for DEFCON 19 Shoot?

Deviant, I am a tad choosy about what ammo goes through my firearms, how will you manage that for everyone?

i'm thinking that this is another future discussion for here on the forums, actually. we'll look around CheaperThanDirt or Sportsman's Guide and just choose whatever we can obtain in proper brass casings for a reasonable fee. i'm going to have all the ammo bagged up in ten-round quantities, and if it was acquired from the shoot shop you'll know it's the quality agreed upon earlier. (again, we'll just have to try to police that on the line as best we can... if you get suspicious you can always check the head stamp of one of the rounds.)

I have no problems with a nominal fee. Last year did have a lot of overcrowding ... an admission fee might also curb some of the "freeloading" as well, as an unintended consequence.

i'm hoping this will be the case, indeed.

the person shooting next to me's AR seriously jammed a live round. But the RSO and a couple of others quickly took it back away from everyone else behind a hill

malfunctions do happen, but as long as people are wise about what they're doing and keep things pointed in a safe direction, it usually works out just fine.

Too many flakes.

fortunately this year in addition to the orange vests, i hope to have some yellow vests, too. folk whose entire job is just going to be security... verifying everyone has badges, someone you can turn to if another person is being a dildo, etc.

[ButterSnatcher]

Re: Admission Fee for DEFCON 19 Shoot?

The defcon shoot seems interesting to me but i was wondering, is this for people who have there own weapons or is there ability to pay to say shoot off a few rounds, and if so are their people there to explain how to fire a gun safely. I have never fired a gun though always wanted to

[sintax_error]

Re: Admission Fee for DEFCON 19 Shoot?

The defcon shoot seems interesting to me but i was wondering, is this for people who have there own weapons or is there ability to pay to say shoot off a few rounds, and if so are their people there to explain how to fire a gun safely. I have never fired a gun though always wanted to

I think you'll find that most shooters will have no problem explaining and demonstrating safe handling. As for the first part of your question, that relies heavily on the willingness of individuals to allow time on their iron. Some may be happy to give you some trigger time, others may ask for you to pay for your ammo, others may simply say no. Last year was my first shoot, and yes, there were plenty of people willing to lend time on their equipment. The ability to pay to shoot off a few is going to be up to the individual you ask.