current registrations, etc

[astcell]

Re: current registrations, etc

I have had folks want to shoot my guns and then I find out they barely know one end from the other. They are not as intuitive as one might think.

I wonder if there may be enough people and a need for firearm familiarization? Maybe a 30 minute class option in the morning for the truly n00b? My state has a Handgun Safety Course which is a joke yet people still fail it. The study guides are 50 cents each and I can grab some for folks.

[TheCotMan]

Re: current registrations, etc

Oh, a follow-up for you "dern ferners" (Darn Foreigners) :-)

This is about places outside the "DEF CON Shoot" ...

Two friends from outside the US came with me to a previous DEF CON, but were not able to "get their fix" of firing firearms, so they looked to take a trip to "American Shooters." It is a few "Las Vegas" blocks away from the Rio. (Las Vegas "blocks" are larger than found in most cities or residential spaces. Please use google maps to compute distance in Miles or Kilometers before deciding to walk there.)

When renting weapons at places like "American Shooters" or "the Gun Store" you will need a driver's license, or passport and credit card to rent weapons. Unlike rules with Credit Card transactions in Europe, you may be asked to leave your credit card with the people renting the weapons. If you have never been to the US, it is very common for people in retail, food, services, etc. to take your credit card away from your sight, run it, and bring back paper to you. Some places have wireless, mobile units to allow you to run your own card from your location, or an employee run it for you without the card leaving your sight, but these are rare in the states, and uncommon.

The Chip & PIN system you have in Europe is also uncommon here in the US. Most PoS terminals can't even read the chip. Don't be surprised if you are not asked for your PIN, but be prepared to enter it if asked.

Anyway, my friends from outside the US had no problem using their passports and credit card to rent firearms at these local ranges, for use only at these local ranges. If you find you want to do moreshooting after the shoot, local Las Vegas ranges are an option. Call ahead to see if Passports are accepted for photo-ID when renting.

Different ranges cater to different levels of experience. "The Gun Store" has (several years ago, last checked) been novice friendly, bordering on codependence. They carry your firearms to the range for you, load the weapons, set the weapon in place (such as with the SAW) so that is is ready to fire, and setup your targets for you. Then all you have to do is pull the trigger to shoot. This is displeasing to people that want to experience the whole process of being given control and responsibility to safely carry the weapons to the range, load it, prepare their target and shoot it. American Shooters does ask if you are familiar with shooting, and if you say you are, will give you more responsibilities and control. Other places with themes, which cater to tourists will often be more like "The Gun Store" with everything setup and prepared for you, letting you just shoot and not worry about anything else.

More about local ranges... Costs are different for each location, and they each have different policies. At "The Gun Store" if I rented a SAW with 12 belts, and wanted to share my rental with 3 other people, they demanded that all people using it pay the fee for rental of the weapon, and each of us to pay a lane fee even when sharing the same lane. This can become very expensive. At American Shooters, I asked about this, and the people there allowed me to rent 3 firearms, and my buddy to rent 3 firearms, and we were allowed to share use of each of our 3 weapons without each paying for the rental of 6 weapons and share a lane. (This policy may change, and be different from one person behind the counter to another.)

Many commercial ranges are "camera friendly" allowing or encouraging you to take pictures or video of your experience. However, please limit your recording or images or video to people in your party. Taking pictures of other people without permission is rude, and may lead to disagreements or conflict.

[jen2]

Re: current registrations, etc

Oh, a follow-up for you "dern ferners" (Darn Foreigners) :-)
If you have never been to the US, it is very common for people in retail, food, services, etc. to take your credit card away from your sight, run it, and bring back paper to you. Some places have wireless, mobile units to allow you to run your own card from your location, or an employee run it for you without the card leaving your sight, but these are rare in the states, and uncommon.

The Chip & PIN system you have in Europe is also uncommon here in the US. Most PoS terminals can't even read the chip. Don't be surprised if you are not asked for your PIN, but be prepared to enter it if asked.

Thanks for that.. that's definitely not the kind of thing the travel agent would warn me about! Having never been to the US, I'd totally panic if I went to a restaurant near a hacker conference and they took my card out of my sight if you hadn't warned me. :)

I think I'll end up just taking cash.

[TheCotMan]

Re: current registrations, etc

Thanks for that.. that's definitely not the kind of thing the travel agent would warn me about! Having never been to the US, I'd totally panic if I went to a restaurant near a hacker conference and they took my card out of my sight if you hadn't warned me. :)

I think I'll end up just taking cash.

Cash is a better way to go. Also, if you want to use an ATM, consider one at a "real bank" a bit of a distance away from DEF CON. I'm not saying hotel/casino security would not notice a bogus machine being dropped off, or modded to swipe user creds, or "hacked" and changed, or tampered with in some other way, but proximity to DEF CON seems to increase chances public devices you often trust outside of DEF CON (rightly or wrongly) may be re-configured to work against your interests.

Enjoy your time at the DEF CON Shoot!

-Cot

[astcell]

Re: current registrations, etc

The only places I have encountered that use the proximity chip in the card are fast food stops like McDonald's. A few other points:

- In America it is typical that employees ask for ID with your credit card. This is also illegal, but they do not know that. Just show them, it's easier and they get confused easily.
- When they look at your ID most the time they do notknow what to look for and after about 8 seconds feel like they are invading your privacy and stop looking. So get a busy piece of paper to show them and laugh it off.
- Charges under $20 no longer require a signature in many places, so the employee may scan your card and hand it back with a receipt and zero interaction on your part.
- Buy American money in YOUR country, it is much cheaper. I used to buy my pounds in the UK at Tesco, or even at an ATM machine (Hole in the wall) and save over US rates and fees.

Several ranges will not rent a gun to one person alone, they usually want more than one person there. There have been cases where a person rents a gun for suicidal reasons and ranges do not want the bad press. Then again this is Vegas, no idea what they do there, but just a head's up.

To anyone who wants to shoot another's firearms, a few points to note: Ammo is not cheap. Even 22LR that was as cheap as water is up in price. The usual price of center fire ammo starts at 50 cents and can easily go to a dollar a round. Or more. No gun owners at Defcon are expecting to make bank on ammo markups, so if it sounds expensive we're sorry, it's not a cheap hobby any more.

If guns are new to you, please say so. There is no dishonor in not knowing what we all had to learn. If you have been in five wars and know all about guns, well you do not know MY guns, and some of them are picky with ammo or technique. Questions are always okay.

In other countries alcohol flows as freey as water. but on American gun ranges and shooting areas, stay 100% sober. Drink after the guns are clean and put away.

And lastly, it cannot be said enough, the end of the gun that the bullet comes out of should always be pointing downrange. At one shoot a range guy in porange pointed out to me that I turned my gun sideways after I was done shooting. My bad. They are not there to make us feel guilty or pick on us, but to make sure everyone acts safe.

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: current registrations, etc

these are all great responses. thank you to folk for offering some guidance.

registrations are still proceeding for the DC Shoot, but it will likely be smaller this year than in the past. we have the much bigger lanes for rent this year, but less of them (7 overall, i think) and they've all filled up, i believe. so that's pretty good.

see you all out in the desert!

[CogR3z]

Re: current registrations, etc

Is it too late to register for the shoot? I am very interested in attending --- as a gun n00b I plan to (primarily) be a non-nagging observer :) Are you accepting registrations/payment at the door?

[cthulhucalling]

Re: current registrations, etc

I have had folks want to shoot my guns and then I find out they barely know one end from the other. They are not as intuitive as one might think.

I wonder if there may be enough people and a need for firearm familiarization? Maybe a 30 minute class option in the morning for the truly n00b? My state has a Handgun Safety Course which is a joke yet people still fail it. The study guides are 50 cents each and I can grab some for folks.

I'll be RSO'ing for the second day of the shoot but will be there for the first day. If anyone need help on how to safely operate a firearm, I have no problem giving them a block of instruction. I'd rather miss out on trigger time than run the risk of someone being a safety hazard.

[cmrn]

Re: current registrations, etc

Hey folks, Just wondering if there is anyway left to register. I realize i'm realllyyy late, but i'm a defcon n00b and am only now realizing this event exists.

I'm canadian, never even seen an actual firearm in person (do i get pity points?)

[TheSiscoCoon]

Re: current registrations, etc

Hey folks, Just wondering if there is anyway left to register. I realize i'm realllyyy late, but i'm a defcon n00b and am only now realizing this event exists.

I'm canadian, never even seen an actual firearm in person (do i get pity points?)

I can't say yes or no to this question, only Deviant really can say for sure. However it is public land and I'm sure there will be no harm in showing up and watching. But the real problem is LANES!!!!! There are only so many lanes and I'm pretty sure they are all bought up. You can however show up pay the small fee to be active and try to get someone to let you use there lane for a little bit. There are also people there with lanes that have guns for NEW people to shoot if they want, all they have to do is cover the cost of the ammo.

"Hacker War Games" contest will also be out there at the same site. I TheSiscoCoon am the lead organizer so I can say for sure your welcome to come out and run the course (Tactical Warfare type course). I have 2 different cal. guns for rent (22LR and 45ACP). For the first 30 people that want to shoot 22LR the cost is FREE, for the first 30 people that want to shoot 45ACP it is a cost of $8.00US cash. Those prices include the 1 round of 7.62NATO that you will need for Part 2 (1 Shot Sniper Shot). I provide all the equipment you will need if you decided to rent. If you want to bring your own firearm I suggest you check out my forum "Hacker War Games" on the defcon site.

So no matter what come out and check things out, I'm sure you will have fun.

TheSiscoCoon

[astcell]

Re: current registrations, etc

Hey folks, Just wondering if there is anyway left to register. I realize i'm realllyyy late, but i'm a defcon n00b and am only now realizing this event exists.

I'm canadian, never even seen an actual firearm in person (do i get pity points?)

I have a lane. I am from Canada too. But living in America means I have guns like you have good manners. I hope you can make it out to the shoot, I will only be too happy to give you some education and experience.