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  • #31
    Travel a tad south to Tijuana, you will probably find a place for $100/mo.

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    • #32
      Yeah I knwo what you mean...I turn 19 this Saturday and my mom still won;t let me go to Mayland for an anime con...don;t worry though..i cant go to Defcon in Las Vegas either...I'm going to the Army soon. But good luck on the parent thing, it can be hard!
      If practice makes perfect, but nobody is perfect then why try?

      Comment


      • #33
        GO ARMY! Hehe you can tell my background. Just tell your Mom anime is cartoons, surely she will think you are "too old" for cartoons!

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Spongetron
          Yeah I knwo what you mean...I turn 19 this Saturday and my mom still won;t let me go to Mayland for an anime con...don;t worry though..i cant go to Defcon in Las Vegas either...I'm going to the Army soon. But good luck on the parent thing, it can be hard!
          Otakon?

          Comment


          • #35
            Wouldn't it be nice...

            This thread brings up a really interesting point or two and some questions.

            It is my understanding that an adult taking a person under the age of 18 over state lines without parental consent is committing a federal offense. If the reason for that transportation is contributing to the delinquency of said minor (defcon==booze, sex and hacking) I believe those felony charges are considered aggravated and the transporters would be facing significant fines and the dark federal booty house.

            This is my impression but the facts may differ, perhaps a fed will correct me. I've been approached several times over the years, by people under 18, who wanted me to take them to Vegas and *swore* that it was ok with their parents (yeah, sure....)

            If, for example, there was a car accident and the minor were injured there would have to be someone with the legal authority to seek medical treatment. If a minor happened to slip by the handful of Goons, in the crowd of 5000+ people and end up od'd on intoxicants the repercussions for the hotel and the convention organizers could be significant.

            The Goons, the AP or Defcon et al do not have any responsibility (moral or legal) to "watch over" anyone in particular, regardless of age. They do their best to provide a safe and enjoyable environment but there's always an asshat out there somewhere who thinks they're the exception to the rule. This is not summer camp. Your parents cannot sign you up and send you off, expecting that you'll be "watched over" and (hopefully) they know it.

            It is irresponsible to suggest that Defcon et al, the Goons(tm), the AP or DT would or should take legal/moral/social responsibility for the welfare of minors at the convention. I believe there is something in the official docs about this as well to the effect that a person who is not of legal age should not be at the AP during Defcon without a parent or guardian. This is especially true for after hours parties because there is a significant amount of drinking, sex, uncensored music and technology.

            The best idea I read in this thread was that your family make a vacation of it and drop you off at the AP during the DAY to attend con events. Other than that, save everyone a lot of headaches (especially Priest) and please stay home until you're old enough to attend without a parent or guardian.
            That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by 3lM0
              I will be turning 18 next year and I want to go to defcon this year really bad but my parents wont let me go to Las Vegas because they say "people die there". I am wondering if anyone has any suggestions on how I can convince them to let me go?
              You're young. Live life. There is nothing more disgraceful than dying a death and not really living life.

              Def Con is an educational event, and being that you [likely, hopefully, etc] have a career in computer science, this is a good start.

              Compromise and say that you'll just go fri, sat, sun and stay at the resort where this is happening and will PROMISE not to wander off *heh heh heh*.

              And the likelyhood if you dying an unprovoked death is so slim, I don't know why it's such an issue.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by ndex
                This thread brings up a really interesting point or two and some questions.

                It is my understanding that an adult taking a person under the age of 18 over state lines without parental consent is committing a federal offense. If the reason for that transportation is contributing to the delinquency of said minor (defcon==booze, sex and hacking) I believe those felony charges are considered aggravated and the transporters would be facing significant fines and the dark federal booty house.

                This is my impression but the facts may differ, perhaps a fed will correct me. I've been approached several times over the years, by people under 18, who wanted me to take them to Vegas and *swore* that it was ok with their parents (yeah, sure....)

                If, for example, there was a car accident and the minor were injured there would have to be someone with the legal authority to seek medical treatment. If a minor happened to slip by the handful of Goons, in the crowd of 5000+ people and end up od'd on intoxicants the repercussions for the hotel and the convention organizers could be significant.

                The Goons, the AP or Defcon et al do not have any responsibility (moral or legal) to "watch over" anyone in particular, regardless of age. They do their best to provide a safe and enjoyable environment but there's always an asshat out there somewhere who thinks they're the exception to the rule. This is not summer camp. Your parents cannot sign you up and send you off, expecting that you'll be "watched over" and (hopefully) they know it.

                It is irresponsible to suggest that Defcon et al, the Goons(tm), the AP or DT would or should take legal/moral/social responsibility for the welfare of minors at the convention. I believe there is something in the official docs about this as well to the effect that a person who is not of legal age should not be at the AP during Defcon without a parent or guardian. This is especially true for after hours parties because there is a significant amount of drinking, sex, uncensored music and technology.

                The best idea I read in this thread was that your family make a vacation of it and drop you off at the AP during the DAY to attend con events. Other than that, save everyone a lot of headaches (especially Priest) and please stay home until you're old enough to attend without a parent or guardian.
                Why can't a 17 year old just transport himself? If a 17 year old is so immature someone of the age of majority has to transport themselves, he doesn't deserve to come. I was planning on coming last year when I was 17, and thanks to my research, I would have been able to come if all of my friends didn't cancel out on me in the last minute.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by {x}taSy
                  Most deaths in Vegas are from natural causes.

                  whew... for a second there I thought you were going to say something like "most deaths in Vegas come from mormans" ...heh.... as for the parent problem...let it go and learn to live with it.. because the second that you think you are free and you move out and you start to live life you parents will move in with you... and that is even worse... trust me on this one


                  Originally posted by ndex
                  I've been approached several times over the years, by people under 18, who wanted me to take them to Vegas...
                  much less the number of people under the age of 18 who have approached you (or vise versa) to take them home.... :D


                  ***edit*** you know I did make this post before reading the rest of this thread, and for that I am sorry, but I will have to say that Mormans (LDS, Latter Day Saints et al) are no more a part of normal deaths in vegas that any other religion. Having been one my entire life (albeight not a GREAT one) they are no more deadly than all those creapy Catholics. ***end edit***
                  Last edited by Siviak; April 26, 2004, 01:34.
                  If I had a nickle for every time someone offered me ten cents to keep my two cents to myself... I would be a rich man.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Well, being Mormon may be a bit of an issue, being that Vegas is the harlot capital of the Western World. If DC was in, say, Mesa Arizona, do you think they would raise such concern?

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by phobal
                      Why can't a 17 year old just transport himself? If a 17 year old is so immature someone of the age of majority has to transport themselves, he doesn't deserve to come. I was planning on coming last year when I was 17, and thanks to my research, I would have been able to come if all of my friends didn't cancel out on me in the last minute.
                      While it my post was slightly less off topic than religion, linking transporting a minor and being responsible for a minor during the con may have been too much for you to compute.

                      If you would proctologically extract your cranium and reread my post you will see that I said nothing about "maturity" and focused almost entirely on legal liability issues. The cost of insurance for DefCon is tremendous. The price of admission helps to defray the cost of insurance somewhat. Legal liability issues that effect con organizers (esp. DT), the AP and con security staff when dealing with minors travelling interstate without parental consent are complex and I wouldn't have posted if someone hadn't suggested that the Goons would look out for unattended minors. Goons should look out for unattended minors, so those minors can be escorted off the premises.

                      Example: if you let a minor who has crossed state lines without parental consent stay in your hotel room, you may inadvertently become legally responsible for their welfare and/or any damages that they may commit or receive. Further, if they become intoxicated while in your room (floor surfing, passer-by walking in to party and say hey) pass out and stop breathing, the legal ramifications are considerable. You must seek aid which you are then not legally permitted to authorize, if you don't seek aid and/or you were the provider of the intoxicants you can go to jail.

                      An 18 year old can travel from state to state as they please. A 17 year old cannot unless they are emancipated and/or have parental consent and I'm sketchy on the emancipation part. Since the 17 year old cannot legally own a vehicle without an adult co-signer, that adult co-signer would have to give permission for the vehicle to be taken across state lines. Most insurance companies will NOT cover said minor. In addition, should said minor, driving alone, get themselves to Vegas and get in an accident - even if it's not their fault, they wouldn't then be covered much less anyone else involved in the accident.

                      Unattended minors at Defcon poses more risk to others, especially legal liability for organizers and other attendees, than they face themselves. However, the risks the unattended minor faces are amplified by the fact that without someone to be legally responsible for them, they cannot get a place of their own to sleep, emergency medical care and may not be covered by their auto or health insurance.

                      It's not about maturity, it's about legal liability and financial responsibility. As an 18 year old, you clearly have a lot to learn about personal responsibility. As an adult, I have a lot more to lose and I'm just not willing to go there, sorry.

                      ndex
                      That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by 3lM0
                        I will be turning 18 next year and I want to go to defcon this year really bad but my parents wont let me go to Las Vegas because they say "people die there". I am wondering if anyone has any suggestions on how I can convince them to let me go?
                        A lot of kids die at college too. I suppose that is reason not go to go college?

                        If you're paying for it, and you're 18 tell them it's time to cut the cord and let you make your own choices. Life is full of risks, you as an adult need to learn and know how to handle them - and that only comes through experiencing life.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Crap, I just re-read your post and NEXT YEAR you're going to be 18.

                          Well, you're fucked then. Wait till next year. ANd if you think a year is too long to wait, then just relish in that fact because in 20 years each passing year will fly by faster and faster and you'll wish they would slow down.
                          Last edited by Contrarian; April 26, 2004, 14:15.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            ndex, you are referring to the Mann Act of 1910. It basically makes it illegal to transport immature girls across state lines for illegal purposes.

                            Here is a clip...:

                            "Whoever knowingly transports any individual in interstate or foreign commerce, or in any Territory or Possession of the UnitedStates, with intent that such individual engage in prostitution,or in any sexual activity for which any person can be chargedwith a criminal offense, shall be fined under this title orimprisoned not more than five years, or both"

                            ...found here: http://wise.fau.edu/~tunick/courses/conlaw/mann.html

                            It is mainly to stop prostitution, but with what goes on in Las Vegas, who wonders any more. Is the law still enforced? Tough to say.

                            ------------------------------
                            Here is a lighter way of looking at it:

                            Down in Florida there was a young man who developed an abnormal fondness for aquatic mammals. He was fairly wealthy and had a rather large swimming pool which he kept filled with seawater. He kept several species of sea life in his pool but was frustrated by the lack of dolphins or porpoises. He knew it would be illegal to keep either in his pool but he longed to fill his pool that way.

                            It happened one day, as he was driving along the beach he came across two beached porpoises and they seemed a little ill--rather than push them back in to the sea he got them in the back of his truck, covered them with wet blankets and drove them swiftly back to his home where he put them in the pool.

                            The swam around listlessly. What to do? He knew, from his research, that porpoises, when ill, prefer "exotic" food such as baby sea birds.

                            He went back on the beach and found a nest of baby terns and took them home. Sure enough the finny friends ate them up and seemed more lively.

                            This caused him to go further down the beach to find more young gulls. For three or four days this went on, then he was forced one day to drive further down the beach than ever--he drove for about an hour and it was dark by the time he found enough baby terns to feed his aquatic booty.

                            Earlier that day the circus had come to the outskirts of town and begun to set up. By accident the cage to old "Fang" the toothless and very old lion was left open. Fang saw this as a possible opportunity and wandered off. He didn't get far when sleepiness overtook him and he fell asleep, right in the middle of the road.

                            Our young man, with the cab of his pickup truck filled with terns, came speeding along the road and inadvertently ran right over poor old Fang.

                            The FBI was on the spot and arrested him at once.

                            Violation of the Mann Act was the charge:

                            "Transporting immature gulls across a sedate lion for illegal porpoises."

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by ndex
                              While it my post was slightly less off topic than religion, linking transporting a minor and being responsible for a minor during the con may have been too much for you to compute.

                              If you would proctologically extract your cranium and reread my post you will see that I said nothing about "maturity" and focused almost entirely on legal liability issues. The cost of insurance for DefCon is tremendous. The price of admission helps to defray the cost of insurance somewhat. Legal liability issues that effect con organizers (esp. DT), the AP and con security staff when dealing with minors travelling interstate without parental consent are complex and I wouldn't have posted if someone hadn't suggested that the Goons would look out for unattended minors. Goons should look out for unattended minors, so those minors can be escorted off the premises.

                              Example: if you let a minor who has crossed state lines without parental consent stay in your hotel room, you may inadvertently become legally responsible for their welfare and/or any damages that they may commit or receive. Further, if they become intoxicated while in your room (floor surfing, passer-by walking in to party and say hey) pass out and stop breathing, the legal ramifications are considerable. You must seek aid which you are then not legally permitted to authorize, if you don't seek aid and/or you were the provider of the intoxicants you can go to jail.

                              An 18 year old can travel from state to state as they please. A 17 year old cannot unless they are emancipated and/or have parental consent and I'm sketchy on the emancipation part. Since the 17 year old cannot legally own a vehicle without an adult co-signer, that adult co-signer would have to give permission for the vehicle to be taken across state lines. Most insurance companies will NOT cover said minor. In addition, should said minor, driving alone, get themselves to Vegas and get in an accident - even if it's not their fault, they wouldn't then be covered much less anyone else involved in the accident.

                              Unattended minors at Defcon poses more risk to others, especially legal liability for organizers and other attendees, than they face themselves. However, the risks the unattended minor faces are amplified by the fact that without someone to be legally responsible for them, they cannot get a place of their own to sleep, emergency medical care and may not be covered by their auto or health insurance.

                              It's not about maturity, it's about legal liability and financial responsibility. As an 18 year old, you clearly have a lot to learn about personal responsibility. As an adult, I have a lot more to lose and I'm just not willing to go there, sorry.

                              ndex
                              I hope you realize I over simplified the issue to prove the point that American society lives in a ridiculously great amount of fear. Citing examples such as 'unattended minors at [a computer confrence] poses more risk to others' and 'risks the unattended minor faces are amplified by the fact that without someone to be legally responsible they cannot get a place to sleep' proves my point even deeper.

                              The point that I was trying to make is that an individual [what we call a mature minor in Canaduh] few weeks shy of being the age of majoirty would AVOID such issues. They wouldn't do stupid shit that an adult would do because they're less of a liability. A mature minor would plan ahead like I did last year.

                              Or maybe I just don't understand the amsuing American legal system because I'm not living in an social world where if I do my job [that being working as door staff at the campus bar] I'll be sued for whatever reason, like ruining someone's night, or brusing someone's knee as I drag him out of the bar.

                              And appearantly, because I'm 18, my intelligence-well, mere words for that matter-is just cheap and impounded in contrast to your all knowing prentention and arrogance. Thanks for the lecture on American Tort-law skippy. Appearantly I'm just too stupid, naive, and young, and thus, I know nothing on personal responsiblity.


                              You Americans are funny.
                              Last edited by phobal; April 26, 2004, 18:22.

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                              • #45
                                2nd post....shit, my bad.

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