What are you views on cheating?

[Second]

You realize this is baiting, yes?
To try to direct this to productive response, intelligence is not something that measures breadth of knowledge, but the ability to use the tools (knowledge) available to solve problems. Wisdom, is the recollection and "appropriate" application of information to a desired outcome or avoid undesired outcomes. I think a better sentence fragment than, "intelligent man," would have been, "person open to new experiences and the learning of many things." (Much less baiting here.)
Baiting in the avoided topics of Poli[removed] or Reli[removed], is a quick way to cause dissention in our ranks.

Didn't mean to "bait". I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that..like fueling a flame? The last thing I want is to cause dissention, just to all be friends. I don't think religious views should put a rift in any relationship. :)

You do bring up other good points about cheating not just being in education though. :-)

I'll regard your comment highly, thank you.

[TheCotMan]

Didn't mean to "bait". I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that..like fueling a flame?

Baiting people IMO is sort of like trolling, but there is not so much a desire to cause disagreements between others as to entice someone into an arguement with you.

Trolling: (Visit a mixed Techie Group and say/write) Mac OS is better than Windows!
(Religious wars are similar)
Baiting: (Visiting a forum with self proclaimed experts and say/write) If you really were an expert, you could ...)
Baiting is sometimes unintentional, and not nearly as bad as trolling, which is usually intentional.

Jumping back to topic with an eye on baiting...
Related to cheating... is use of baiting in the context of social engineering to get someone to reveal secret information to you a form of cheating? Is manipulation a form of cheating?

[dYn4mic]

This is a very intresting thread. Good idea again Cot.

Now.. I can't really say anything that hasn't been said already. Many...many.. good points...by noid and Cot your views are exactly how I feel.

But I think this is really hard to define in such a broad way.. " cheating " can take lots of forms in lots of contexts. If we don't want to just go in loops on a million tangents, we're just going to have to define cheating better, the intent of the cheater, the victims if any, and the repercussions(spelling?)... Cheating in a video game, or cheating on your SAT?
Deep down on a moral level, any kind of cheating is probably 'bad'. (Some are worse than others)..
But everything good has been said already about the core of cheating. More questions like this please.

[Thorn]

Although I know the Politics/Religion forum was closed for a reason, I don't think I can fairly answer this question without pointing to them as the source. Being a Christian, the Bible clearly outlines how I should deal with cheating. Being an intelligent man, I'll assume you know the Christian viewpoint on cheating.

You realize this is baiting, yes?
To try to direct this to productive response, intelligence is not something that measures breadth of knowledge, but the ability to use the tools (knowledge) available to solve problems. Wisdom, is the recollection and "appropriate" application of information to a desired outcome or avoid undesired outcomes. I think a better sentence fragment than, "intelligent man," would have been, "person open to new experiences and the learning of many things." (Much less baiting here.)
Baiting in the avoided topics of Poli[removed] or Reli[removed], is a quick way to cause dissention in our ranks.

I'm not sure I would call it baiting, as much as "ambiguous" and therefore open to interpertation. There are at least ten English versions of the book known as "The Bible" to Christian sects, and probably a lot more. Some differ widely on many details.

How bad a light is cast on cheating would depend on the version a given sect views as THE Bible, how literally that sect interperts that version, and even which chapter and verse is used to illustrate the "cheat." Generally cheating is seen in a negative way in the Judeo-Christian moral system. However, there are some situations in which cheating is seen as a good thing. e.g. Where a person or entity viewed as "evil" is cheated out of "souls."

This brings us right up to the edge of the slippery slope, and we're off into Politics & Religion land. The next thing you know, we're counting angels on pinheads, and that would be when then baiting really starts.

[Ridirich]

Honestly, I feel we should not bring religious discussion in here, at all. My reasoning is, some people force their beliefs on eachother without intending to, and it angers those around them. Same with political views. Now I know both will come up on occasion but it would be helpful if we gave a quick nod and moved on.

I, personally, will niether comfirm nor deny my belief in the Bible. I will, however say that any belief needs to be backed up by more than a book, otherwise it is being followed blindly. I do not care if the book litterally glows and speaks to you. I do not care if it can walk, talk and dance. To come to any conclusion, you need evidence.

A good example of this is Masaaki Hatsumi Soke's books. I practice Bujinkan, otherwise known as Ninjitsu. I look at books, movies occasionally go to classes...but all these are not enough for me. I do historical research to make sure my teachers(by this I mean all media I take into my mind) are correct. I do math to see if indeed this specific strike puts out as much power as my teachers say it does.

Just because Master Hatsumi's books say something, does not make me believe it right off.

How I see this as being involved with cheating is simple. Your parents may have taught you not to do it, a religious book(Koran, Bible, ect..) may bave taught you and even society may have taught you not to...but in the end you need to look at the evidence yourself.

My view on cheating is extremely clear cut. "Any person(s) that reach a goal unjustly by using work not their own." It is quite simple. If a person looks on another's test and then proceeds to use the answer...they have cheated. If a person downloads a program that gives them unfair advantage in a game(Aimbot, Wallhack, so fourth) they are cheating. If a person sits on their ass and does nothing during the steeplechase, and does not a damn thing, they have cheated.

[astcell]

In high school for a geography test I needed to know every world country (about 160), their capital, and all the major rivers in the world, about 30 I think, plus some other items. About 500 things total I believe. The test questions were: 1, name all the countries and their capitals, per continent; 2. Name the world's major rivers and their continents... oh and I had to know deserts as well.

So I cheated. Since all we could bring were pencils to class. I took a pin and wrote all the answers on the sides of a half dozen #2 pencils.

Things I learned from this:
-You do not need to memorize what you can look up at any time.
-Remembering the location of Mozambique is not as important as remembering the last time you changed the oil in your car.
-If you really cared about it, you'd not cheat at it. in other words, I knew right then and there I was not going to be a geographer.
-Don't use the entire side of the pencils. When I sharpened them I lost a dozen answers.

[highwizard]

What about the cheating/hacking paradigm? When do you cross the line of hacking-as in NOT cracking-to cheating-as in cracking.

Take the scavenger hunt for example. This contest implies "improvising", but what's the line from "creative hacking/improvising" to "outright cracker/cheater".

Dark tunnel, this thought process leads. Ponder on this more, I will.

The Scavenger Hunt is proof of the purest form of hacking and not cheating. The Staff Clearly outlines the rules to the game on the sheet of paper. If people choose to research the contest and understand that it takes place at Defcon, they will "hack" their way to a win. Hacking the contest is at the heart of the game.

The Defcon 12 Rules were:

The Rules
1. Teams are limited to 5 people.
2. No items will be counted past Noon (PST) on Sunday. This includes any items that can't get submitted
by the judges by noon (usually caused by waiting until the last minute to turn in items).
3. Items must be brought to a staff member. Members will be wearing authorized badges. The points will
be logged at the Scavenger Hunt table.
4. Only one of any item will be counted per team. Items marked as “task” require proof such as a
videotape, audio recording, or photograph of the task (ask a staff member if in doubt). Items marked
as “item” need to be shown to a staff member.
5. DC801 and Rootcompromise.org may publish any media brought to us, or taken by us in relation to the
Scavenger Hunt. We would like copies of video footage and images for our archives.
6. Bonus Items are high value endeavors that can be obtained through special hand delivered notes upon
completing a task. They could be puzzles or excursions? Staff can create bonus items and their
designated point values as they see fit although they must be approved by Grifter, Dedhed, or Kampf if
the task or item is worth more than 40 points.
7. The first team to find a listed or bonus item will receive the value of the item plus 5 additional points.
8. Points may only be granted by a member of the Scavenger Hunt Staff. The Goons, while great
guys/gals are not hunt staff and can not give you points for anything, at all, so forget it. Do Not
attempt to ask any Goons for points. There are two Goons that are Hunt Staff. Grifter, and Dedhed. If
anyone other then these two individuals says they can get you points for the hunt for something, you
are going to look pretty silly trying to convice the Hunt Staff to give said points to you.
9. The first team to register will receive 100 points, second team will receive 50.

If you broke one of them you would be cheating. If you found a clever way to solve a problem that's not cheating. That's hacking... And the only people who whine about it are the losers.

[astcell]

Regarding the rules, here are some "hacks", not cheats:

1. Apparently animals and non-people can amount to any number.
2. Items will not be counted, but maybe a single item will. Item is not plural. It should have said no item or items.
3. Staff member is vague. So is authorized badges....

it can go on and on, but you just need to be creative. Kind of like the wardrive where one guy went all the way to L.A. because it was "west."

[Floydr47]

Cheating is taking an unfair advantage. The very concept of cheating smacks of dishonesty. I think that if a person cheats in order to gain an upper hand over his/her peers it speaks directly of the persons character. If a person cannot be trusted to play a game without cheating how can you trust them not to cheat at anything else? I wouldn't turn in a cheater, I wouldn't help a cheater, I would simply be wary of the person and feel safe in the knowledge that eventually their dishonesty would catch up to them.

[highwizard]

Cheating is taking an unfair advantage. The very concept of cheating smacks of dishonesty. I think that if a person cheats in order to gain an upper hand over his/her peers it speaks directly of the persons character.

So wait, if your definition of Cheating is "taking an unfair advantage", does that mean they should never play a game where you are smarter then someone else or more creative because to them your intellect or creativity would seem unfair?

Soceities are built on Unfair Advantages. Infact, I like that unfair advantage of having a large military and nuclear weapons. It keeps the whiners in check.

[Ridirich]

There is a differance between upgrading hardware, making your computer faster, having a better connection, so fourth....and downloading a program where all you do is walk around and your computer fires, in a game that revolves around the principal that you should work on your reflexes, unless the game designers built that in.

It is also unjust that if you are in a game portraying 1900 AD technology that bullets should NOT go around corners unless you fired a buckshot from a shotgun, and one of the pellets riccochetted into the enemy.

[enven]

To make this short and sweet...

My views are cheating as follows;

In school its fair game when you're not in the mood to study. In video games dont cheat whatsoever....thats just my opinion.


Enven.

[Xodia]

In school its fair game when you're not in the mood to study. In video games dont cheat whatsoever....thats just my opinion.

Thats not the right attitude. Most people in school are never in the mood to study. If someone says its alright to cheat when you aren't in the mood to do something it would make the world stop. Not to mention alot of marriages would fail. :)

The way I see it the only way you can tell when its ok to cheat is to weigh the circumstances carefully. For instance, I got expelled from my school with four weeks left (for rather hilarious circumstances, but I won't go there) and they would not give me the opportunity to finish the year using their curriculum. I enrolled in an independant study program to finish the year and the way it works is I have to take another whole semester of classes. I know I have learned everything in those packets already, so I do cheat some to speed through it. Most would agree cheating is ok in that situation.

If someone cheats they should first consider their circumstance to be assured that no harm can come from it (EMT exams would be a bad thing to cheat on). People use cheating as an excuse to not learn too often. People should also be prepared to accept the consequences if they are caught. Cheaters never prosper is true in most cases, but in some cheating is the good thing to do.

Like Astcell said, there are some things that are more important than knowing the capitol of Mozambique.

[theprez98]

If there is doubt, there is no doubt.

In other words, if something seems wrong to you, it probably is. When that gut feeling is telling you what you're doing just doesn't seem right, there's a reason for that. It applies not only to cheating but to many other aspects of your life. It's your internal moral compass.

Of course our moral compasses are not all aligned the same way; whether it was guided by parents, religion, politics, a combination, or some other factors. For that very reason, there will always be differing opinions on what is "cheating" and what is "hacking" or "being creative".

Those who are guided by religious conviction will often have a certain standard for "cheating" that they believe is reasonable, while that standard will be completely different for moral relativists.

[Siviak]

first off, yes, baiting is a great SE tool to get more information from someone, it also serves to keep a conversation going which does the same thing and also allows you to be somewhere longer if you need to be.




Cheating. This is a good one CotMan.. but as I have read everything it would appear that cheating/hacking/creativity, these things are all based on one thing, justification. ASTcell cheated, the end. But we all agree with him that knowing some of the things that we are expected to learn will only waste time and valued brain cells because we will simply never use them. but what he did we wrong. And that is simply his justification.

Anyone ever been told by their parents that "Life is not fair"? That is the case here. there is no such thing as a "level playing field". Things like that and "equal opportunity" are false hopes that just make people feel better. I win at Monopoly, why? Because I use my SE skills and timing to talk people out of properties when it is most beneficial to me. You might win because you have used all of your computer skills to figure out the odds of someone landing on one square or another and built/bought accordingly. Who is to say if one or the other is cheating? Just because we both "worked" on it some people here would say that neither is, and still some people would say that both are.

We all "boo" the bad guy in movies when he still manages to sneak a knife into the finial hand-to-hand showdown.... but we cheer when the good-guy-beat-half-to-death finds a way to CHEAT death and save the day.

I believe it was Rockefeller who said "No man has ever made a million dollars 'honestly'. They have each broken a law, lied, or cheated to get there... even if they did it before they had a law against it." or something along those lines.


so in closing, I would have to agree with rot_link that this is nothing more than the Kobayashi Maru.