DC-STUFF mailing list is moving

[shrdlu]

Re: DC-STUFF mailing list is moving

Good call. I (we?) appreciate it. I hadn't noticed this thread.

Nor had most anyone on the list, I'm sure. However...

It's probably quite tedious. I think the current group has been at it for about 3-4 years. They're pretty good at it, but may need a break.

I'm not sure who still *is* managing it. I suspect that those you think are, have left (Cat, for instance, has been gone for some time).

I have the resources to host the list and/or archives, if the need arises. I'd also be willing to give one of the admins a break, at their discretion. Relevant individuals can drop me a mail.

This isn't the place to make that offer. DT has already offered, here. I note that Digital Ebola and Foofus have both offered over on the actual list (masochists that they are). I also note that most posts don't even seem to be making it to the list. I'm subscribed from multiple accounts, and not all of them receive any of the posts; some only receive a subset. Odd.

I would think it was best if someone over there be chosen to represent the current denizens of the list, and then post over here to keep a presence of those actually affected.

[converge]

Re: DC-STUFF mailing list is moving

I deliberately resubscribed to the (dc-stuff) list to let people know that this was happening.

w00t~ ... there's definately a decent slosh of folks that don't care for or participate in the list, excellent for DT to hear from those that this *directly* effects.

I think its a pretty reasonable sentiment not to attempt changing/reforming a list; just because I'm not particularly entertained or enriched by it, doesn't mean it has to be formatted into something I personally like, I just choose other mediums. Hence the recommendation for starting additional list(s) to act as a vehicle with specific purpose, letting the folks that have molded dc-stuff into its current incarnation to continuing enjoying it.

[zorch]

Re: DC-STUFF mailing list is moving

This isn't the place to make that offer.

Agreed, but then this probably also isn't the place to be having this discussion.

DT has already offered, here. I note that Digital Ebola and Foofus have both offered over on the actual list (masochists that they are). I also note that most posts don't even seem to be making it to the list. I'm subscribed from multiple accounts, and not all of them receive any of the posts; some only receive a subset. Odd.

Which probably explains why I received Foofus' offer after I posted, and still haven't seen Digital Ebola's

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it." But something is apparently broke.

I would think it was best if someone over there be chosen to represent the current denizens of the list, and then post over here to keep a presence of those actually affected.

It'd probably be better to have the discussion on the actual list, but apparently that's not possible with the current state of the list.

The concensus seems to be "leave it as it is".

I'd recommend addressing the technical issue first, to stabilize list function. Then take the issue of any further changes to the list.

[priest]

Re: DC-STUFF mailing list is moving

Right, as one of the "8 people" who actually post to the dc-stuff list I think I should weigh in on the subject.

Killing the list is a bad idea. There are quite a few more people on the list than just Woodchuck, SD, DA, Izzac, Reese, Foofus, Lizz, and myself who actually post on the list and who enjoy reading it. Granted it is not focused on DC and ranges from politics to cooking but it is quite diverting and quite entertaining.

There are of course a vocal minority who, like most vocal minorities, whine/bitch/moan/cry over what a mean and evil place it is and how horrible the people are there. These few are usually children of all ages who snuck out from under mommy's skirt, got into daddy's closet, put on daddy's 'big man' pants, and are trying to play with the 'big kids' or a bunch of politically correct limp wristed panty wearing wankers who demand that people subscribe to their world view then run away crying when people don't while calling them Fascists-Racists-Homophobes and compare them to HItler.

As an example think of what just happened at Columbia to the leader of the Minutemen where students who are supposedly for free speech and equality for all bum rushed the stage, put an attempted beat down on the speaker, and chanted that no such subject would ever be uttered at Columbia because it was a view counter to theirs.

In my mind killing the list because of this vocal minority is in essence surrendering to the tyranny of the minority. Frankly if you don't like it unsubscribe, don't post, don't read it. Otherwise jump in, the water is fine. Hold you own and don't be an idiot and you will be fine. Otherwise go back to the kiddie table and clutch your bubu or better yet please GO OUTSIDE AND PLAY HIDE AND GO FUCK YOURSELF!

If the list needs moving I will step up and host it if no one else will. Shutting down, moderating it, or changing its focus, to me, brings to mind the way so many of the silent majority simply roll over and give in to the wing nut minority because they don't want to be called dirty names.

Priest

[priest]

Re: DC-STUFF mailing list is moving

Nor had most anyone on the list, I'm sure. However...



I'm not sure who still *is* managing it. I suspect that those you think are, have left (Cat, for instance, has been gone for some time).

I am. Bobcat is. It seems to be motoring along fine frankly. If there is a problem let me know.

Priest

[Foofus]

Re: DC-STUFF mailing list is moving

Good day, gentle hackers.

It seems as though dis.org wishes to relinquish the burden of
hosting dc-stuff. That's a 100% reasonable wish, and we should
say a nice thanks to Evil Pete (et al.) for so many years of
list enjoyment. If I've misunderstood, and dc-stuff can continue
to live on at dis.org, then we can dispense with the remainder of
this post, and go on about our daily business.

It also seems as though Dark Tangent (or some delegate thereof)
may establish an official DefCon version of dc-stuff, so that
e-mail discussions of DefCon-related matters may live on. That,
too, is a 100% reasonable move, and I am sure that many of us
will subscribe.

As many of us know, however, only a small percentage of the
traffic on dc-stuff's existing incarnation is defcon-related,
and indeed it is this anarchic/hostile/random character that
gives the list its special charm. It's not reasonable to expect
DefCon (or anyone without a stake in the current list culture)
to dedicate resources to anything so bonkers.

Dc-stuff has forked before, it it wound up not being much fun.
Dc-stuff has experienced unexpected changes in the past, and
these also wound up being points of contention and flamage.
Nevertheless, it's my hope that the soul of dc-stuff transcends
the domain where it is hosted, and that we can find a generally
agreeable way of migrating elsewhere.

I propose to do the following:

1. I will register a domain to be dedicated to the list;
this way, if it ever needs to move again, we can just
change DNS, without everyone having to re-write their
procmail rules or whatnot.

2. I will point the MX record for the list domain to a
server with mailman on it (present candidates are a
box at my place, or a box of Digital Ebola's; I think
this is an insignificant detail, though, unless others
voice a strong preference).

At this point, the facilities for list operations will in place,
but there are some important other issues to tackle:

a. How will people get subscribed? One plan would be
simply to migrate the existing subscriber list over.
In fact, absent some compelling argument to the contrary,
this is what I propose (requests not to be migrated over
will be honored, of course).

b. How will the list be administered? One plan would be
to keep the current administrators. Again, absent some
compelling argument to the contrary, this is what I
propose. I am not sure I know who is an admin, at this
point, however (anyone other than Priest and BobCat?);
I will also honor requests not to be an admin any more.
If more admins are needed, I assume that Digi and I are
de facto volunteers, since nobody had better pony up a
server without planning to work on it some.

c. What of the archives-- should they be migrated over?
Personally, I don't have a strong opinion on this matter.
My default suggestion is to migrate them, since they
are there, but I haven't really spent a whole lot of
time thinking about the topic. If there's some good
reason not to do this, I'm all ears.

It has been suggested that if action is to be taken, it should
be done soon. Does anyone want to voice a reason why it should
not be done? Or to express an opinion on any of the points
raised here?

I am cross-posting this message to both dc-stuff and the forums,
and I'll check for answers in each location.

--Foofus.

[TheCotMan]

Re: DC-STUFF mailing list is moving

This isn't the place to make that offer. DT has already offered, here. I note that Digital Ebola and Foofus have both offered over on the actual list (masochists that they are).

This is a place to offer these, as is the dc-stuff list. If DT isn't presently subscribed to the dc-stuff list or reading its content, it would make sense to discuss this here too.

Is hosting the list by another list member an option? I don't know. Ask DT or Pete. Is keeping the present admin structure for the list in a new location an option? Based on the top post from DT, it looks like he will be looking for people to manage the list, which isn't necessarily moderation.

Killing the list is a bad idea.

Moderation of it would be even worse.

Granted it is not focused on DC and ranges from politics to cooking but it is quite diverting and quite entertaining.

Transitioning the list, and adding more lists (like an announce-only list, and some of the others suggested above like a DCG list) would allow membership to be migrated and add lists that I would subscrbe to read.

Though I don't care for the content of dc-stuff, and wasn't entertained, I've not stated it should be destroyed. I have voiced my desire to see an announce-only list. Though some people have asked about its value (above) I don't think anyone has come out and made a statement that it should be destroyed.

There are of course a vocal minority who, like most vocal minorities, whine/bitch/moan/cry over what a mean and evil place it is and how horrible the people are there. These few are usually children of all ages who snuck out from under mommy's skirt, got into daddy's closet, put on daddy's 'big man' pants, and are trying to play with the 'big kids' or a bunch of politically correct limp wristed panty wearing wankers who demand that people subscribe to their world view then run away crying when people don't while calling them Fascists-Racists-Homophobes and compare them to HItler.

( Godwin's Law, from list members? and that is a good thing?)

Anyone can join a political discussion. The level of knowledge required to express an opinion? None. As a result, it can be hard to tell if a person posting their opinion is really, "that dumb," or is just another troll.

Discussion of politics, and the dissention and flaming often associated with them has existed on the dc-stuff for quite a while.

One plus for keeping it they way it is, but only moving the list over the one of DT's servers, is that we can direct people on the forums wishing to discuss politics to that list. I've done it in the past, but I don't know how many people actually subscribed.

As an example think of what just happened at Columbia to the leader of the Minutemen where students who are supposedly for free speech and equality for all bum rushed the stage, put an attempted beat down on the speaker, and chanted that no such subject would ever be uttered at Columbia because it was a view counter to theirs.

Yes. A perfect example of what would happen if the dc-stuff list were to become moderated. Someone's post would not be allowed to pass, and then there would be claims of favoritism, elitism, and/or censorship for any number of reasons including disagreement with the views posted. Eventually, someone would say they are leaving the list, and without new membership, the count of members would slowly approach 1, or a group of people in agreement over the topics being discussed.

In my mind killing the list because of this vocal minority is in essence surrendering to the tyranny of the minority. Frankly if you don't like it unsubscribe, don't post, don't read it. Otherwise jump in, the water is fine. Hold you own and don't be an idiot and you will be fine. Otherwise go back to the kiddie table and clutch your bubu or better yet please GO OUTSIDE AND PLAY HIDE AND GO FUCK YOURSELF!

Hey now. Playing hide-and-go-fuck-yourself is supposed to be an INSIDE sport-- this is what the police told me.

Seriously though, I subscribed, I watched, I left. Is anyone here suggesting that dc-stuff should be destroyed? People above have questioned its value, and asked for an announce-only list, as well as others, but I don't think anyone said they should be destroyed.

If the list needs moving I will step up and host it if no one else will. Shutting down, moderating it, or changing its focus, to me, brings to mind the way so many of the silent majority simply roll over and give in to the wing nut minority because they don't want to be called dirty names.

Based on what DT was offering, I think that he would be looking for list managers for any litsts hosted on-site. If you are a list manager, you can verify DT's membership to the dc-stuff list to confirm he is actually able to see any threads on dc-stuff, where you are all discussing this.

[shrdlu]

Re: DC-STUFF mailing list is moving

Good day, gentle hackers.

Wahoo! I wondered when you'd make your way over here.

[snip]

I am cross-posting this message to both dc-stuff and the forums,
and I'll check for answers in each location.

--Foofus.

Good luck with that (the cross-posting). The list hasn't been so timely, of late.

One thing that has kept, and keeps, the dc-stuff list going, is the link from the defcon page (you need new blood now and then, if only to provide unsubscribe entertainment). Since it's not moderated, it doesn't seem to need a lot of attention (although Priest and Bobcat would be the ones to know).

I *do* wish Pete had thought to poke one of them (i.e. Priest or Bobcat), or perhaps dump a clue to the list, but there you have it. I'm about to unsubscribe again from the list, now that I've stirred things up.

TTFN

[shrdlu]

Re: DC-STUFF mailing list is moving

I am. Bobcat is. It seems to be motoring along fine frankly. If there is a problem let me know.

Priest

I was pretty sure that Bobcat was (but I hate to take things for granted). I was pretty sure you still managed, but wasn't sure you read (either the list, or the forums). I don't think Bobcat's on the forums. I just wanted to see to it that the people most affected had a voice.

TTFN

[ßobÇat]

Re: DC-STUFF mailing list is moving

I don't think Bobcat's on the forums.

I joined long ago. I just rarely read the forums. Or any forum, anywhere. I thought usenet had solved the intragroup communications problem quite nicely.

There's not that much actual work involved in running the list. A few times a year someone has trouble posting or something and they usually ask me for help. There's not often anything I can fix on mailman, except to fix up their address. pete's spam filters keep the admin queue pretty empty (unless someone else has been clearing it). As long as you can keep mailman healthy you won't have a problem.

[shrdlu]

Re: DC-STUFF mailing list is moving

I joined long ago. I just rarely read the forums. Or any forum, anywhere. I thought usenet had solved the intragroup communications problem quite nicely.

There's not that much actual work involved in running the list. A few times a year someone has trouble posting or something and they usually ask me for help. There's not often anything I can fix on mailman, except to fix up their address. pete's spam filters keep the admin queue pretty empty (unless someone else has been clearing it). As long as you can keep mailman healthy you won't have a problem.

Actually, I think that this will be a good thing, long term. The current delay between posting, and arrival, is pretty steep. Moving it elsewhere can only help that. I think that Foofus and Digital Ebola have the best handle on things (i.e. keep everything, and just move it elsewhere). It isn't my cup of tea, but I'd still be sorry to see it gone.

I'm with you on forums, but someone on Coffee Wars had to make the sacrifice, and foofus has a life (sort of). I'm just glad I saw this (I don't check in as often as during defcon). I'll probably bail from dc-stuff once this blows over (one way or the other), but I guess that I want to see what happens next for now.

TTFN

[Digital Ebola]

Re: DC-STUFF mailing list is moving

On the subject of moving:

1. I wouldn't expect everyone to enjoy the list. it's not for everyone, both in tone and subject matter.

2. Jokes aside about the 8 people thing, these people have enjoyed discussions for many years, and it has had it's ups and downs. Sure, it's not always about Defcon, hell, ALOT of it isn't... but then again, Defcon isn't always about Defcon either. It's what you make of it. This is what has been made of the list, love or hate it.

3. I have enjoyed the list, greatly. I have enjoyed the people, greatly. I don't think that I am the only one.

4. Is there a place for such a list? Sure! Has been for years. Is there a place for a dedicated announcement list? Sure! How hard is it to have both? Not very.

5. Would I want to admin the list? I'd rather not, but if there was no other choice, and it meant the list staying as-is in content terms, yes.

6. Would I devote server resources to this? Yes, if it came down to it.

7. Moderation? No, No, No, No. Please no.

8. Anarchy is fun, try it!

I like the idea of the forums, it's very valid. I'm not a fan of that style of communication, but I think this forum is a wonderful way to achieve a purpose. I also think the mailing list is a wonderful way of achieving another purpose, and that purpose is putting a bunch of curmudgeons together to talk about random stuff. Not everyone is a curmudgeon. Not everyone is suited for it.

Please, won't you think of the curmudgeons?

[Europus]

Re: DC-STUFF mailing list is moving

I have one question and one question only. For the Dark Tangent: why was this announced here, instead of on the list it affects?

[shrdlu]

Re: DC-STUFF mailing list is moving

I have one question and one question only. For the Dark Tangent: why was this announced here, instead of on the list it affects?

You know, I don't think this is the right question, here. I'd be a lot more interested to know why Pete Shipley didn't at least mention this to the two current administrators before he made the offer to DT (or at least let them know what was up).

Really, I think that people were just trying to do the right thing, and not necessarily thinking about who it might affect.

I'll point out that I replied to him (DT), *telling* him that I was posting to dc-stuff, so he may have just figured it was handled. Don't read things into a situation that aren't there.

Europa, huh? Interesting choice.

[Zane]

Re: DC-STUFF mailing list is moving

I have been a lurker on the list for a number of years and always enjoy a good laugh. Hell once in a while something educational even zips past the general banter. Occasionally it might even be slightly technology/Defcon related, that is when it’s not all about elephants raping and killing rhinos of course. I for one would miss my daily dose of DC-STUFF, who can forget good ole Wynacht or the ever annoying but always entertaining unsubscribefest. Albeit a lot of it seems to be more than some can comprehend, fuck them, I agree with what priest said on the forum this snippet of his post says it all "please GO OUTSIDE AND PLAY HIDE AND GO FUCK YOURSELF!". If you came to DC-STUFF looking for announcements about Defcon and are disconcerted by what you have stumbled upon, AKA elephants raping and killing rhinos, there is always the unsubscribe feature which if attempted while still in shock from said posts may wind up in the afore mentioned entertainment for the rest of us. I guess I like this collection of randomly crude and vulgar barbarities with its seldom educational yet always entertaining spew of what ever the hell anyone happens to feel like slinging at our mailboxes. I hope to see this list live on as is for many years, maybe even as a contributor when I get a chance rather than a solely voyeuristic approach.

Zane Revai