Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

Collapse
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • AgentDarkApple
    Public Security Section 9
    • Aug 2009
    • 224

    #61
    Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

    I basically like all the suggestions so far. Here's the version from my little world...

    I like the idea of using some sort of identifier other than the person's name when booking a flight. Perhaps assigning each person a passenger ID the first time he/she flies (or first time after the rule was made) and keeping track of a few things would help weed out a lot of non-threats, such as businesspersons who fly often. Thorn's idea about using data and looking for patterns makes sense. Flight destinations, age, ethnicity, etc. ARE appropriate to use for screening, especially when that many lives could be at stake. I think the number of bags checked, any obvious display of nationalistic or religious loyalties, any prior problems/arguments with the flight crew or other passengers, other people they fly with, etc. should be logged as well.

    When booking the flight, people should have to declare how many checked bags they plan to bring, and this should be locked in on their ticket so they are obligated to not exceed that number. When traveling with pets, one has to call and make special arrangements, so I think calling to make arrangements for firearms, large musical instruments, and other items that require special handling is also a good idea. This is not so much a safety thing but it is for the protection of the owner's property. Plus if the check-in desk knows that three guys with weapons and one with a tuba are going to be on the flight, they can have someone ready to handle and inspect those items so the owner does not have to waste time waiting and does not hold up the regular line. People checking NO bags should have to use the self-checkin kiosk.

    I like Deviant Ollam's idea of behavioral profiling. I think this should be done as people are entering the airport as well as at the security check point at the gate. Additionally, the flight crew should be taught the basics of behavioral profiling. shrdlu is right that there are instances when being politically correct is not feasible. Which is more important - lives and security or the dignity of a few people who were wrongly scrutinized? We know that a handful of ethnicities, ideals, and nationalities have been behind the attacks that have happened so far, and we know that certain clothing, colors, sayings, and symbols represent those ideals or nationalities. The personnel conducting behavioral profiling should covertly keep a close eye on such persons, only making a scene if it seems necessary to do so. The profiler should also notice if the person seems to have any sort of connection or relationship with someone else who is present or if the person seems to be spending a lot of time nervously making calls, making lots of bathroom visits, etc.

    At the checkpoint, someone should check a person's ticket to make sure it is valid. If the person is carrying a carry-on item, the TSA official should stamp or punch the ticket once for each item. If the person has no carry-on item and did not check a bag, this should throw up a red flag for additional screening, especially if the ticket is one-way. They should be searched and asked why they were heading one-way with no bags, and a profiler should be present to gauge their reactions.

    I am still not sure how I feel about everyone's bag being scanned. Personally, I hate for my bag to have to drag across those filthy little rollers. I think taking off shoes and outerwear is ridiculous. Unless someone is wearing a particularly out of season ensemble like a long trenchcoat or gangstawear puff jacket in the middle of August, then there should not be an issue. The people who DO dress like that year round should expect to undergo a more detailed screening. Rather than standard metal detectors, airports need to use ones that show WHERE the metal is that is registering with the detector. A 5" knife-shaped thing in someone's boot is a cause for concern. Heavy piercings and a metal studded belt are probably not. And some chick can hide a knife in her weave just as easily as she can in a purse, but nobody would expect that. Military-grade devices used for detecting explosives, detecting abnormalities on a person's body (such as a vest loaded with explosives), and detecting the density of metal objects should be used. These devices do exist, but it seems like only the military is making use of them at this point.

    Instead of the flight attendant being a nice girl in a pencil skirt asking you if you want a Sprite, she should be armed and trained to handle violent/terrorist scenarios - calmly asking people to return to their seats does nothing. In addition to the safety video shown prior to each flight, there should be a video about how the passengers are expected to behave and what will happen if they do not. Bathrooms on the plane should have blast-proof walls and doors that lock from the outside, and if a passenger ends up being armed or has explosives, the flight attendants (and some volunteers, if necessary) should try to throw the person in there and lock the door. True, this may make the bathroom unusable for the rest of the flight, but I think anyone who had to go would have already wet themselves at this point.
    "Why is it drug addicts and computer afficionados are both called users? " - Clifford Stoll

    Comment

    • streaker69
      • Mar 2008
      • 1141

      #62
      Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

      Originally posted by AgentDarkApple
      Instead of the flight attendant being a nice girl in a pencil skirt asking you if you want a Sprite, she should be armed and trained to handle violent/terrorist scenarios - calmly asking people to return to their seats does nothing. In addition to the safety video shown prior to each flight, there should be a video about how the passengers are expected to behave and what will happen if they do not. Bathrooms on the plane should have blast-proof walls and doors that lock from the outside, and if a passenger ends up being armed or has explosives, the flight attendants (and some volunteers, if necessary) should try to throw the person in there and lock the door. True, this may make the bathroom unusable for the rest of the flight, but I think anyone who had to go would have already wet themselves at this point.
      I do agree with most of your points, but I have some issues here. Blast-proof walls would add considerable weight to the plane, more weight means less capacity for luggage. I can see they'd have issues with this, but I do actually like the idea, but with one addition. They should also have the ability to pull a near vacuum once the person is locked inside. No oxygen, no combustion, plus it'll calm the person down, quickly.

      I do think all planes should carry cuffs and shackles with the crew trained how to properly secure an unruly person on board. I've read too many reports where they have improvised tying someone to a chair. Maybe they have them, I don't know, but if they don't, they should.
      A third party security audit is the IT equivalent of a colonoscopy. It's long, intrusive, very uncomfortable, and when it's done, you'll have seen things you really didn't want to see, and you'll never forget that you've had one.

      Comment

      • xor
        not
        • Aug 2007
        • 1347

        #63
        Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

        Actually putting a fire out on a plane is a fairly simple process, as long as it hasn't hit the fuel of course. De-pressurize the plane, no o2 to burn, no fire. It doesn't have to be rapid either, it can be done slowly. Most people can live without o2 for more than 5 minutes.

        What you want is a hard, light material, that can withstand concussion. With most explosions it's the concussive forces that do that damage. That shock wave created by the explosion will do the most damage. Perhaps some type of force redirecting plates on the fuel tanks to safety channel the forces away.

        xor
        Just because you can doesn't mean you should. This applies to making babies, hacking, and youtube videos.

        Comment

        • renderman
          Notorious Canadian Hacker
          • Mar 2003
          • 1428

          #64
          Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

          Side note:

          CBS news is reporting that restrictions are being eased and that it's up to the captain of the flight as to what you can and cannot have at the end of the flight. No word on the restriction to one carry-on though.

          http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/...n6030609.shtml
          Never drink anything larger than your head!





          Comment

          • theprez98
            SpoonfeederExtraordinaire
            • Jan 2005
            • 1507

            #65
            Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

            Originally posted by renderman
            Side note:

            CBS news is reporting that restrictions are being eased and that it's up to the captain of the flight as to what you can and cannot have at the end of the flight. No word on the restriction to one carry-on though.

            http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/...n6030609.shtml
            So basically TSA is basically passing on "the bad guy" to the airlines.
            "\x74\x68\x65\x70\x72\x65\x7a\x39\x38";

            Comment

            • Dark Tangent
              The Dark Tangent
              • Sep 2001
              • 2732

              #66
              Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

              Remember when the British were testing blast resistant / vented luggage carriers for airplanes? The idea is that if a bomb went off these strong containers would vent the explosive gasses off over a longer period of time and reduce their effect.

              Airplanes are fairly resistant to windows and doors blowing out. I remember a flight heading to Hawaii that had ten feet of the fuselage break free due to fatigue and they still landed alright.

              That means you have to carry enough explosive to cause a big enough hole, which means on your person as the nitrogen would be detected on the hybrid x-ray scanners. As far as I know the only defenses here are the 'puffer' and the back-scatter scanner.Both expensive, and both still in testing. The back-scatter may even be unhealthy by un-zipping your DNA. http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/null/154196
              Last edited by Dark Tangent; January 2, 2010, 02:19.
              PGP Key: https://defcon.org/html/links/dtangent.html

              Comment

              • Lowie
                Incompetent Ass Hat
                • Jan 2007
                • 37

                #67
                Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

                Originally posted by streaker69
                I do agree with most of your points, but I have some issues here. Blast-proof walls would add considerable weight to the plane, more weight means less capacity for luggage. I can see they'd have issues with this, but I do actually like the idea, but with one addition. They should also have the ability to pull a near vacuum once the person is locked inside. No oxygen, no combustion, plus it'll calm the person down, quickly.
                Unfortunately not feasible. Aircraft interiors are optioned in many different configs dependant on Airline / flight route requirements. In addition to different configurations, interior fit-outs are available from multiple manufacturers. And during the lifespan of an aircraft it's not unusual for interior config to change four or five times.

                I do think all planes should carry cuffs and shackles with the crew trained how to properly secure an unruly person on board. I've read too many reports where they have improvised tying someone to a chair. Maybe they have them, I don't know, but if they don't, they should.
                I can't speak for every airline of course, but until recently all of my airlines aircraft were fitted with handcuffs in the cockpit to restrain unruly passengers. More recently these have been replaced in favour of large zip ties. These are much easier to use and much harder to remove. And they do get used quite regularly, mainly for drunk, aggressive or drug affected individuals.
                I only drink because my friends are boring...

                Comment

                • streaker69
                  • Mar 2008
                  • 1141

                  #68
                  Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

                  Originally posted by Lowie
                  Unfortunately not feasible. Aircraft interiors are optioned in many different configs dependant on Airline / flight route requirements. In addition to different configurations, interior fit-outs are available from multiple manufacturers. And during the lifespan of an aircraft it's not unusual for interior config to change four or five times.
                  I do realize that. I was more or less joking about the idea. The sheer cost of implementing such a plan would make it completely infeasible.
                  A third party security audit is the IT equivalent of a colonoscopy. It's long, intrusive, very uncomfortable, and when it's done, you'll have seen things you really didn't want to see, and you'll never forget that you've had one.

                  Comment

                  • AgentDarkApple
                    Public Security Section 9
                    • Aug 2009
                    • 224

                    #69
                    Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

                    The latest news on this incident reeks of fail...

                    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009...-board-flight/
                    "Why is it drug addicts and computer afficionados are both called users? " - Clifford Stoll

                    Comment

                    • barry99705
                      Member
                      • Sep 2007
                      • 302

                      #70
                      Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

                      Originally posted by streaker69
                      I do realize that. I was more or less joking about the idea. The sheer cost of implementing such a plan would make it completely infeasible.
                      I remember something on Beyond 2000 back in the late 80's that had individual "cabins" in each row. They all had their own roll up doors, and were bullet resistant. You couldn't put as many people on the airplane as you normally can, but with this system an explosion will vent most of it's pressure out a window.

                      Comment

                      • Deviant Ollam
                        Semi-Professional Swearer
                        • May 2003
                        • 3417

                        #71
                        Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

                        This image has been making the rounds, so you may have seen it... but for those who haven't yet...


                        ... in most ways, this is totally understandable... given that most "snow globes" contain liquid, and all but the smallest ones would contain said liquid in volumes beyond what is permitted currently. this time of year, it's not surprising to have lots of people flying back home with snow globe gifts from the holidays. it's also not super-surprising for people to want to hand-carry them since they are sentimental and fragile and most people don't know how to pack things so they don't get broken.

                        still, it should be the passenger who anticipates this case since the liquids rule (stupid as it is) has been in place for ages now. the real shame is people having to turn back and either separate-check the snow globe (with what? a shitty little airline-supplied pouch with no padding?) or try to mail it home (at the few and far-between in-airport post offices that so often don't have the right supplies for fragile goods?)

                        where you really need this sign is down at the check-in counters so that someone can place a frantic phone call to their relative pulling away from the curb, saying "oh my god... make a loop and come back around so you can take this snow globe from me, i can't have it here!"
                        "I'll admit I had an OiNK account and frequented it quite often… What made OiNK a great place was that it was like the world's greatest record store… iTunes kind of feels like Sam Goody to me. I don't feel cool when I go there. I'm tired of seeing John Mayer's face pop up. I feel like I'm being hustled when I visit there, and I don't think their product is that great. DRM, low bit rate, etc... OiNK it existed because it filled a void of what people want."
                        - Trent Reznor

                        Comment

                        • Deviant Ollam
                          Semi-Professional Swearer
                          • May 2003
                          • 3417

                          #72
                          Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

                          Originally posted by barry99705
                          with this system [of individualized mini-cabins] an explosion will vent most of [its] pressure out a window.
                          see below for my feelings on this important matter.

                          Originally posted by Dark Tangent
                          Hawaii that had ten feet of the fuselage break free due to fatigue and they still landed alright.
                          yeap, Aloha Air 243 (actually an inter-island flight)

                          that flight incident should be referred to constantly in the press at times like this, but sadly it's not. i take the MythBusters approach to considering matters such as these. As Adam pointed out during the "explosive decompression" myth (in which Aloha 243 was actually referenced briefly) "seeing this sort of stuff serves to reinforce how safe i feel on planes... it takes a lot to bring one of these out of the sky."

                          recall, the Aloha 243 flight was made by a 19-year-old Boeing 737, which had gone nearly 20% beyond it's designed lifespan. this was 1988.

                          given the advances in airframe technology and plane manufacturing since then... not to mention tests that take place at the FAA center (a mere 45 minutes down the expressway from me!) with actual bombs in fuselages... how much explosive force is needed to actually blow one of these outta the sky is very significant nowadays.

                          the fact that the press doesn't say that with each and every story is only a cunt hair short of criminal, in my view, because they are contributing to national panic and a rise in the sheeple population.

                          Originally posted by Dark Tangent
                          the 'puffer' and the back-scatter scanner.Both expensive, and both still in testing.
                          i'm interested in seeing the puffer technology develop more. of course, all of this should be part of a system of additional potential checks, challenges, and inspection based around behavioral profiling.
                          "I'll admit I had an OiNK account and frequented it quite often… What made OiNK a great place was that it was like the world's greatest record store… iTunes kind of feels like Sam Goody to me. I don't feel cool when I go there. I'm tired of seeing John Mayer's face pop up. I feel like I'm being hustled when I visit there, and I don't think their product is that great. DRM, low bit rate, etc... OiNK it existed because it filled a void of what people want."
                          - Trent Reznor

                          Comment

                          • theprez98
                            SpoonfeederExtraordinaire
                            • Jan 2005
                            • 1507

                            #73
                            Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

                            Originally posted by Deviant Ollam
                            yeap, Aloha Air 243
                            A picture is worth a thousand words!
                            "\x74\x68\x65\x70\x72\x65\x7a\x39\x38";

                            Comment

                            • streaker69
                              • Mar 2008
                              • 1141

                              #74
                              Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

                              Originally posted by Deviant Ollam

                              the fact that the press doesn't say that with each and every story is only a cunt hair short of criminal, in my view, because they are contributing to national panic and a rise in the sheeple population.
                              People's perception of reality is not only formed by what the news says, but it's also formed by what they see in movies and TV. We've all seen it with the average person that doesn't understand technology that thinks everything they see CTU do on 24 is actually possible, and don't even get me started on last seasons incident with the chemical plant.

                              Look at all the movies that have been out over the years where a small firearm was fired through a window and the entire side of the plane blew out. I agree, Mythbusters did a good job of showing it just doesn't happen. But the average person isn't watching Mythbusters. People will continue to argue their test was invalid because they didn't do it at altitude and at speed therefore there's some other factors that come into play.

                              What's really quite funny (peculiar, not ha-ha) is that none of this non-profiling measures aren't new, it goes at least back to the early 80's and probably even further back. Everyone remember the scene in the first Airplane! movie when they frisked granny while guys when through with all kinds of weapons? If it wasn't happening back then, chances are, it wouldn't have made it into the movie.

                              (yes, I see the irony in using a movie scene to point out something after saying people's perception is based upon what they see in a movie, but I think my point in this case is valid.)
                              A third party security audit is the IT equivalent of a colonoscopy. It's long, intrusive, very uncomfortable, and when it's done, you'll have seen things you really didn't want to see, and you'll never forget that you've had one.

                              Comment

                              • Lowie
                                Incompetent Ass Hat
                                • Jan 2007
                                • 37

                                #75
                                Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

                                Originally posted by streaker69
                                I do realize that. I was more or less joking about the idea. The sheer cost of implementing such a plan would make it completely infeasible.
                                Sorry Streaker, I didn't mean to imply you hadn't realised that. I was just saying it's unfortunately not possible, due mainly to security not being paramount in the design of new passenger aircraft.

                                Really, it should be safety first, security second, and keeping passengers amused well down the list from there. But alas, marketing rules the day.

                                If I had it my way, the only windows on passenger aircraft would be for the flight deck... but that's another tract altogether.
                                I only drink because my friends are boring...

                                Comment

                                Working...