DC-STUFF mailing list is moving

[TheCotMan]

Re: DC-STUFF mailing list is moving

I read through the recent archived thread on dc-stuff, and want to offer the following to address incorrect assumptions about the forums:

1) The waiting period to reply to existing threads is presently only 24 hours.

2) The system of promotions to different "titles" (Lurker, partial Lurker, New User, Registered User) is for only 2 to 4 weeks, to allow more controls and access, and limit would-be spammers, people asking FAQ,, requests for for tech support, or other common problems associated with impatient posters. After that, there are no other automatic promotions. We know, "how long," a person has been registered to a forum or mailing list is no measure of worth for that person. This is why there are no other automatic promotions beyond a few weeks. People set their own titles after 2 or 3 weeks.
(You might be amazed at how much is filtered by enforcing a 24-hour waiting period.)
The only other usergroups are for people that actually do stuff, like goons and mods (as examples) or user-joinable usergroups to let users control the display of extra forums for DCG, or "social" spaces with less restrictive rules.

3) When you subscribe to a thread and enable email notices for subscribed threads, you don't get every post update emailed to you. You get a notice when there is a new post, and nothing more until you visit again. If you are logged in while a post is made, you will almost certainly not get an email update about that post, since you were logged in when it was made and can see for yourself.

If you have questions about the forums, let me know, and Ill try to answer.

[Dark Tangent]

Re: DC-STUFF mailing list is moving

Woo! Lot's of posts over the weekend it seems.

Let's see.. no big conspiracy on why I posted here first. I was working on backing up the configs to dc-stuff, and posted to my open browser window.

As for leaving it alone, changing it, etc. It looks like a consensus has formed. Leave dc-stuff in anarcy mode, and create a new announcement list, or whatever. But keep dc-stuff alone.

As for where? Well the new list server machine is almost complete, so it will live in defcon.org space.

Who manages it? I hope not me! I can supply badwidth and a machine, but I'd prefer to let the current group of admins do their thing.

That's what I've worked out so far.. keep 'em coming.

[shrdlu]

Re: DC-STUFF mailing list is moving

Woo! Lot's of posts over the weekend it seems.

Let's see.. no big conspiracy on why I posted here first. I was working on backing up the configs to dc-stuff, and posted to my open browser window.

I am amused at the number of people who were believing in some sort of conspiracy, but want to point out that it would have been nice to follow it up with a post to dc-stuff itself. Sometimes the population on the forums seems to think of itself as representative of the larger population that attends defcon. In that same way, the inhabitants of dc-stuff have been forgotten.

As for leaving it alone, changing it, etc. It looks like a consensus has formed. Leave dc-stuff in anarcy mode, and create a new announcement list, or whatever. But keep dc-stuff alone.

I don't think a consensus has been reached at all. I'd give it a couple more days to work itself out. I suspect that others would think that also. I would think it more useful if you could read the threads over there, rather than just look here.

https://mailsrv.dis.org/mailman/priv...er/030301.html

I note that you no longer are a subscriber to the list (or at least, your name doesn't show on that list). Access to the archives should be pretty easy; two of the administrators are on the forums, and I'm sure you'd only have to ask (or you could temporarily subscribe). The conversation *there* has been much more heated than *here*, as you might imagine.

As for where? Well the new list server machine is almost complete, so it will live in defcon.org space.

Who manages it? I hope not me! I can supply badwidth and a machine, but I'd prefer to let the current group of admins do their thing.

That's what I've worked out so far.. keep 'em coming.

I note that Foofus made a post there (https://mailsrv.dis.org/mailman/priv...r/030320.html), and here (https://forum.defcon.org/showpost.ph...&postcount=21), and (like you) has a life on the weekend. I'd like to see it play itself out, and would hope that nothing hasty is decided. In the event that dc-stuff is rehosted elsewhere, I'd hope that you'd want to be supportive, and continue to provide a link to it, rather than compete with it.

I am also excited to think that you'd have an announcement list. I'd be one of the first to subscribe. It would be nice, also, to have a discussion list, but one that was moderated (unlike dc-stuff), and would be more concerned with defcon. I think of dc-stuff as something like /dev/null, but more sophisticated, and at this point, self-moderating (suffer fools gladly is not in the vocubulary of the inhabitants).

Sorry that this is becoming book length, but I hope that you will give it a few days to continue to work itself out. Do you have a timeline on when Pete is wanting things to be gone? I suspect that it's asap, and I'm sure people are working on just that.

More later, when others are up...

[ßobÇat]

Re: DC-STUFF mailing list is moving

DC-STUFF has moved.
Over the next few hours, the last posts made to dc-stuff@dis.org will trickle out to the list. You should get a bounce message if you try to post to it. (might take a while, it's been slow the past few days).
If you are a non-hidden member, you have been automagically subscribed, so address your posts to dc-stuff@dc-stuff.org - Now with added anarchy!
If you are not a member, won't you join us?
http://dc-stuff.org/mailman/listinfo...f_dc-stuff.org

[converge]

Re: DC-STUFF mailing list is moving

I'm glad to see this was resolved as it should have been. It was a little disturbing to catch tail end of some folks bitching and whining about it not being fair, stomping their feet about being net.elders that remember fido, generalizing and judging forum members because it happened to be initially questioned on here, or ultimately some kind of voting thing (wtf was up with that?)

For those that recently subscribed, you may have to re-sub to the new list. I'm not certain that the default of the previous list was to hide your email from the list, but I suspect some new subs may have gotten lost in the shuffle (having not received the transfer confirm/welcome for the new list automagically).

Digi / Bobcat: Will the archives be brought over? Remain showcased by the dis crew? ... or lost in the shuffle?

[ßobÇat]

Re: DC-STUFF mailing list is moving

51 addresses were hidden (seems like most were bouncing anyway), they were not subscribed, but everyone got (will get) a message telling them of the change. 1651 addresses were added to the new listserv. Only 10 of them have unsubbed so far.
We have the existing archives, they will eventually be put on dc-stuff.org. I don't know what pete intends to do with his copy.

[shrdlu]

Re: DC-STUFF mailing list is moving

I'm glad to see this was resolved as it should have been. It was a little disturbing to catch tail end of some folks bitching and whining about it not being fair, stomping their feet about being net.elders that remember fido, generalizing and judging forum members because it happened to be initially questioned on here, or ultimately some kind of voting thing (wtf was up with that?)

Really, I don't think it was whining. I think it was a bit odd for it to be discussed here at all. I think that DT was very kind to think of rescuing it, but I still don't get (and probably will never know) why Evil Pete didn't just email the list, or at least the administrators, and let them know. You're one of those poeple on both, and used to being on both. Put yourself in the shoes of someone on the list who only heard about it after I posted over there.

If you were one of those, reading discussions about what to do with it must have been odd, to say the least. You had Digital Avatar talking about being a net.elder; his feelings were just hurt because he tried to make an alternative, and for the most part, nobody played.

For those that recently subscribed, you may have to re-sub to the new list. I'm not certain that the default of the previous list was to hide your email from the list, but I suspect some new subs may have gotten lost in the shuffle (having not received the transfer confirm/welcome for the new list automagically).

Yeah. I was subscribed as "hidden" and had to manually resubscribe myself. I note that a few people that thought they'd unsubscribed got added to the new list, so it may be that Bobcat is working with an older subscriber list. Still, he made a post to that list, and hopefully anyone interesting will follow over to the new list.

Digi / Bobcat: Will the archives be brought over? Remain showcased by the dis crew? ... or lost in the shuffle?

I've asked that question myself. I think the plan is to bring them over. I hope so.

I've been on dc-stuff, off and on, since, um, er, sometime between defcon III and defcon IV. Man, that's a longggggggg time ago. Scary.

[TheCotMan]

Re: DC-STUFF mailing list is moving

It was a little disturbing to catch tail end of some folks bitching and whining about it not being fair, stomping their feet about being net.elders that remember fido, generalizing and judging forum members because it happened to be initially questioned on here, or ultimately some kind of voting thing (wtf was up with that?)

["They Suck!" with reply, "They Suck more!"]

It is natural for many people to participate in a defense of something/someone when they perceive an attack on that same something/something that they value. Some will choose to mount an offense as a defensive strategy.

[Value statements were made about their list, off of their list, as well as member perception of being slighted by not being contacted first on their own list.]

When dealing with a group of people that are often paranoid, suspicious of change, and contemplative of motivations and hidden agendas whenever a change appears to be pending, there is great potential for quick escalation to assume nefarious intentions beyond that of actual motivations. (Does this group sound familiar?)

[It's easy for armchair-anarchists to make a mountains out of molehills in these circles.]

This analysis of events found in some forum/list members is often healthy and is often missing in the general population of sheeple, but "over-analysis" can lead to false assertions, false conclusions, and false positives for conspiracy.

[A torch that illuminates, can also burn; is this torch a gift, or a threat of arson?]

At this point, we shouldn't aggrivate the hornet's nest.

[Like what I said about Chris? "Don't poke the bear" ? Yeah. Kind of like that.]
:-)

[converge]

Re: DC-STUFF mailing list is moving

Really, I don't think it was whining. I think it was a bit odd for it to be discussed here at all.

Indeed .. and please note the some folks part of that, because there was a legit head scratch token for why the list wasn't brought in on it sooner. Some question why it was brought up on the forums at all, but I can understand that chain of events if DT was assumed the next list resource torch holder; that said, from a couple of the emails I caught there was definately some whining.

I've asked that question myself. I think the plan is to bring them over. I hope so.

We have the existing archives, they will eventually be put on dc-stuff.org....

Bobcat wins! .. you sir may claim your prize of (1) beer OR (1) group hug from dc-stuff at the next Defcon. Kudos to Digi, Bobcat, and Foofus for stepping up, with an honorable mention to shrdlu for taking flack on being the conspiritous shot messenger.

At this point, we shouldn't aggrivate the hornet's nest.

But .. ITS FUN!

In all honosty, I hope that folks from the list feel welcome to join and romp around the forums.. as much as forum members might now be curious about the list and test the waters instead of relying on a few developed opinions.

[Europus]

Re: DC-STUFF mailing list is moving

The Dark Tangent:
Let's see.. no big conspiracy on why I posted here first. I was working on backing up the configs to dc-stuff, and posted to my open browser window.

Okay. Pete notified you, you should have notified the list or its moderators, not this forum. Are you a parent? If so, eventually your child will marry - you'll want to hear about that from the child, not from one of your childs friends or someone else. See how that works? It's water under the bridge now, but you are well-advised to keep thngs like this within their hierarchy.

TheCotMan:
Value statements were made about their list, off of their list...

That is correct, not that the whines and complaints of non-contributors should be given any weight. For example, do you care what anyone there thinks of this forum or you in particular? You went on to provide a bit of phychoanalysis, you shouldn't have.

[shrdlu]

Re: DC-STUFF mailing list is moving

Let's see.. no big conspiracy on why I posted here first...

Okay. Pete notified you, you should have notified the list or its moderators, not this forum. Are you a parent? If so, eventually your child will marry - you'll want to hear about that from the child, not from one of your childs friends or someone else...

Please, this isn't helpful. I'm not sure which one of you this is, but I have a couple of suspects. It isn't necessary. It's over; everything's okay. Lighten up.

Value statements were made about their list, off of their list...

That is correct, not that the whines and complaints of non-contributors should be given any weight. For example, do you care what anyone there thinks of this forum or you in particular? You went on to provide a bit of phychoanalysis, you shouldn't have.

Nothing like playing into everyone's beliefs about the inhabitants of dc-stuff. I'd apologize for whoever this is, but I'm hoping it can just be ignored. It's really bad when someone can make bobcat look mature and civilized, you know?

[ßobÇat]

Re: DC-STUFF mailing list is moving

OBviously I need to increase my use of beer and strippers.

[TheCotMan]

Re: DC-STUFF mailing list is moving

That is correct, not that the whines and complaints of non-contributors should be given any weight. For example, do you care what anyone there thinks of this forum or you in particular?

The forum? Sure. I've read through comments about these forums from members and non-members to find what can be added (or removed) to make it more effective as a tool to help getting information about Defcon available, encourage related discussions, and avoid asshatery.

I joined the forums long before 2003, but I didn't like what I found then, and so I left the forums. Obviously, I did come back.

The contest/event subforums came about as an answer to the problem of people being too lazy to search for the proper thread in which to reply. Why care? These mistakes were pointed out by busy mods, which lead to flame-fests from the user being corrected and other members directing flames to the new user, such that 30% of all posts were in /dev/null.

The Specific Contest/Event subforums lead to giving some Contest/Event leaders more controls in the subforums for their events to set/remove stickies. Why? Many reasons, but it helped free mods from settings/unsetting stickies or splitting/merging threads in each contest/event subforum. This has lead to more involvement from various organizers of contests and evemts. The DCG expansion to allow for links to DCG with web pages and/or discussions came about through observations and complaints about inactive DCG.

Complaints about the search system on the forums taking too long with an enforced delay between searches, lead us to a delay that appears to be a better balance.

A user complained about a lack of RSS feeds, and after a short testing period, that was enabled.

Addition of a search <form> at the top of the first page came about as a result of making searching obvious and easier. The addition of a link to the rules at the top, and in multiple places also came about through suggestion.

Ideas to deal with spam, have also come from a few sources and complaints from mods and users.

Many ideas have been put into place to minimize the amount of effort of forum moderators, and through other people's suggestions, we have a drastic cut in /dev/null posts per month, as well as Fucktard Hall.

Yes, I care about people's complaints on the forums. If a fix for the complaint does not hurt the present members, and "improves" the forums, then one of the benevolent dictators may ask for discussion before including a change, or just make a change.

Some changes help us, and some don't. Some changes are liked, and others are not. We continue to try to make thie forums better for the members that frequent them, but we know we can't please everyone.

You went on to provide a bit of phychoanalysis, you shouldn't have.

Awww shucks. It 'twasn't nothin' :-)
[No Problem.]

Most people would not have bothered to read it all.

[ßobÇat]

Re: DC-STUFF mailing list is moving

I hate to almost change the topic, but is dc-girls still active? Do they need rescuing? Because that would prove that irony is SO not dead.

[TheCotMan]

I hate to almost change the topic, but is dc-girls still active? Do they need rescuing? Because that would prove that irony is SO not dead.

On many levels, this is true, with the obvious inclusion of posting this question on the forums too, instead (?) of posting it on that.
(heh heh)

But .. ITS FUN!

In all honosty, I hope that folks from the list feel welcome to join and romp around the forums.. as much as forum members might now be curious about the list and test the waters instead of relying on a few developed opinions.

Heh-heh. *Them*?!?! *Here!?* Nooo! ;-)

Seriously though, they are welcome to join, just like everyone else. However, after reading through their recent archives, I don't think many of them like the forum environment as much as the mailing list.