Starting on Thursday....

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

The only other option I see is to significantly increase staff sizes so that we can give each staff member at least one day off during the con.

this wouldn't be all that bad, in truth, if there is an unstoppable public outcry for four "official" days of con.

i am willing to bet that a lot of the core people at DEFCON haven't actually had any "off" time at the conference at all for the past half decade or more.

i'd think that a mandatory "one shift off for every two shifts that you're on" system might be great for letting people actually see things they want to see. if DEFCON's thursday gets any more official, however, then i'd think that most of the pre-con events would have to shift back a day, as well... DC Shoot, TBBQ, and EFF Summit would push to Wednesday. that's the only way to be fair on the staff.

(this would also mean that QM Stores and Skybox keys would all have to be available a day earlier for access and gear movement... hotel costs are associated with that, no?)

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

Deviant, what did you mean about the physical security side of things?

with all respect and fairness, i'll state plainly that you and i must have been speaking to different people. absolutely every last individual with whom i spoke concerning the Thursday lockpicking talk stated that it was sub-par. a handful of people made comments that it was outright terrible.

again, everyone's opinion is different... and i respect you and your input a great deal, so that makes me re-evaluate my opinion on the matter. but when up to half a dozen of my very own Black Hat students (whom i came to know rather well over the couple days prior to DEFCON) were literally groaning, that colored my opinion.

there is also the matter of a number of parties speaking to Alek before his talk offering help, only to have him say (somewhat dismissively) "yeah, no... i've got it under control" but then the moment he took the stage (again, i'm going by reports from others... please correct any errors i have) his first statement was "uhm, so... i like lost a lot of my gear and stuff so i can't really go into all the details that i wanted to in this talk"

all in all, just from a basic overview perspective, i spent more time this weekend than i would have wished having to apologize for the Thursday lockpicking talk and explaining to people that TOOOL and the LP Village weren't associated with it. hearing your side of things, however, makes me reconsider and temper my opinion somewhat. i want to hear more from lots of people concerning how it went, what they got out of it, etc.

[Schuyler]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

You know, I can understand some of what you are talking about. I continue to wonder if I wasn't in some sort of bubble this year, but the talk was extremely casual / tongue-in-cheek at times, and def. a different mood from LPV and, I would assume, your BH training. I think Alek's goal, and certainly mine, was to get people comfortable interacting with the physical security offerings at con, not actually teaching a great deal of information. That was the overall goal of DC101 as a whole, as I understood it. As a result, I'm confident some non-n00bs, even recent nons, were put off by it.

I mean, each one hour session, the lion's share of the room had no concept of how a lock actually functioned, made it perfectly clear from the questions they had, and the talk was approached from that standpoint.

Anyway, it's disappointing that it was so poorly received by some. As I said, I've never received such an overwhelmingly positive response, though it was all from brand new people. I'm wondering if DC101 might need some form of expectation management as well?

For me DC101 isn't about extending con for the gross majority of con goers, it's an opportunity for a person to say "Well, I finally want to attend all of the X sub-culture talks & workshops this year, so I'm going to go to DC101 X to get introduced to it" I mean, I'm a physical security guy, that's it. I can't get my head around a lot of the other things con has to offer. If my schedule allows, I'd like to get introduced the same way.

All of this said, I'm getting the impression that everyone's expectations for DC101, from attendees, to organizers, to speakers, to goons, to those not participating, are all over the map.

[Chris]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

You know, I can understand some of what you are talking about. I continue to wonder if I wasn't in some sort of bubble this year, but the talk was extremely casual / tongue-in-cheek at times, and def. a different mood from LPV and, I would assume, your BH training. I think Alek's goal, and certainly mine, was to get people comfortable interacting with the physical security offerings at con, not actually teaching a great deal of information. That was the overall goal of DC101 as a whole, as I understood it. As a result, I'm confident some non-n00bs, even recent nons, were put off by it.

I mean, each one hour session, the lion's share of the room had no concept of how a lock actually functioned, made it perfectly clear from the questions they had, and the talk was approached from that standpoint.

Anyway, it's disappointing that it was so poorly received by some. As I said, I've never received such an overwhelmingly positive response, though it was all from brand new people. I'm wondering if DC101 might need some form of expectation management as well?

For me DC101 isn't about extending con for the gross majority of con goers, it's an opportunity for a person to say "Well, I finally want to attend all of the X sub-culture talks & workshops this year, so I'm going to go to DC101 X to get introduced to it" I mean, I'm a physical security guy, that's it. I can't get my head around a lot of the other things con has to offer. If my schedule allows, I'd like to get introduced the same way.

All of this said, I'm getting the impression that everyone's expectations for DC101, from attendees, to organizers, to speakers, to goons, to those not participating, are all over the map.

Full Disclosure: I didn't go to any DC101 talks or to Deviants BH training.

That said, I would assume that the people that went to Deviant's training would by default find at 101 level talk about lock picking laughable. They just spent two days learning ins and outs of locksport. The 101 talk (I assume) was geared toward people that had zero knowledge and wanted to get their feet wet and maybe start to learn some things. Seems like these are two different audiences. It would be like HD Moore going to a TCP/IP 101 talk and then bitching because it was too easy. Make sense or am I way off base in my perception of the DC101 talk?

[Schuyler]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

It would be like HD Moore going to a TCP/IP 101 talk and then bitching because it was too easy. Make sense or am I way off base in my perception of the DC101 talk?

Dead on. Only, in my own full disclosure, I had to Google HD Moore. :P Seriously, all I do is pick locks. I need to pry my mind open a bit and learn some of the rest of this stuff.

[valkyrie]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

... That was the overall goal of DC101 as a whole, as I understood it. As a result, I'm confident some non-n00bs, even recent nons, were put off by it.

NOW I understand. Schuyler, there was the first talk, in Track 1 on Thursday that was called DC101, A Lurker's Guide to DefCon. It is to this specific talk and no other talks on Thursday to which I allude. Your inclusion of all the other talks on Thursday into "DC101" has had me scratching my head and I wish to make the distinction between them for the sake of clarity.

I don't know how well received the other Thursday talks were received. I received positive feedback on the above mentioned talk as the expected take away of that talk (an overview of all that was available to do at DEFCON) was well managed and the speakers who participated in that talk did a fantastic job in managing those expectations.

All of this said, I'm getting the impression that everyone's expectations for DC101, from attendees, to organizers, to speakers, to goons, to those not participating, are all over the map.

Again, not to pick nits, I was pretty clear that DefCon 101 was one specific talk and the other Thursday talks were what ever they were. And I agree with you, general expectations of Thursday talks seem to be a bit polarized.

Regards,

valkyrie
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sapere aude

[Schuyler]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

NOW I understand. Schuyler, there was the first talk, in Track 1 on Thursday that was called DC101, A Lurker's Guide to DefCon. It is to this specific talk and no other talks on Thursday to which I allude. ...

Regards,

valkyrie

AH! My bad. Sorry about that, valkyrie! I was definitely using it globally & did not get the chance to attend the actual DC101 talk.

Thoughts on the introduction to whatever talks still stand, but yeah, sorry about my confusion there.

[theprez98]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

I was part of DC101 and while I agree there should be some content for n00bs, I also voted no on extending into Thursday. The day was a blur from Black Hat to the Riv to DC101 to TBBQ and beyond...

[wiseleo]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

I voted "No".

As much as I love Defcon, and I've been to quite a few, there is a point at which it really is too much. Besides, it would overlap with Blackhat.

The DC101 needs to be a video posted on Defcon.org.

I do like the concept of early registration, however. For the price of a cheap hotel night Thu-Fri I can avoid the line of the damned to not receive: badges, CDs (seriously, WTF was with that?!), and schedule.

Early access to Skyboxes could be fun, but those are managed by their own people irrespective of goons, as I understand it.

[hexjunkie]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

I would be one of the n00bs that everyone loves so much, but I'd like to add in my 2 cents.

While I have never experienced the 3 day defcon where the TBBQ and Summit were before the con.. I'd have to admit there was a lot of overlapping events on that day.

I enjoyed the ability to register a day early, I also loved the n00b talks and would be in favor of n00b classes on Thursday (so that they have a chance to experience the rest of the con without missing any of the great talks). The fortunate thing is this can be executed with minimum staffing the registration staff, the speakers, and a couple of Goons for demon(DC101, Con Kung Fu, Intro to Lock picking, and Intro to something else) and run those 4 classes as the N00B Track before the con officially starts. Do these in the morning from like 10-2 to give peeps the ability to register, attend noob track and not mess with any of the classic pre-con events in the evening.

This is IMHO and can be taken as you like.

[Melesse]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

The DC101 needs to be a video posted on Defcon.org.

I would disagree for two reasons. Number one, DC101 is a great opportunity for folks new to DC to meet each other. It might be a lot less intimidating to start things off with a slow pitch, and create a situation where they're all on a level deck together. Second, DC has a flavor and culture all it's own. The lower you set that initial bar, the more likely people are to acclimate and thus contribute.

I do however think that DC101 should be a very low key event. I thought the Monkey Butler's were recruited so that the Goons didn't have to be there to take care of security, although with all the other talks going on Thursday I guess they didn't have a choice. The ideal set up would be, say, DC101 in the chill out room guarded and waited on by Monkey Butlers. Then the Monkey Butler's could help set the room to be the chill out room. Then the Goons don't have to get involved, the chill out people get help, and the Con proper isn't infiltrated.

Isn't it time we opened a thread dedicated to DC101 and suggestions? I would do it but have had Valkyrie jump on my ass before >< Once flamed, twice shy.

Mel

[noid]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

I would disagree for two reasons. Number one, DC101 is a great opportunity for folks new to DC to meet each other. It might be a lot less intimidating to start things off with a slow pitch, and create a situation where they're all on a level deck together. Second, DC has a flavor and culture all it's own. The lower you set that initial bar, the more likely people are to acclimate and thus contribute.

I do however think that DC101 should be a very low key event. I thought the Monkey Butler's were recruited so that the Goons didn't have to be there to take care of security, although with all the other talks going on Thursday I guess they didn't have a choice. The ideal set up would be, say, DC101 in the chill out room guarded and waited on by Monkey Butlers. Then the Monkey Butler's could help set the room to be the chill out room. Then the Goons don't have to get involved, the chill out people get help, and the Con proper isn't infiltrated.

Isn't it time we opened a thread dedicated to DC101 and suggestions? I would do it but have had Valkyrie jump on my ass before >< Once flamed, twice shy.

Mel

Um..ya..the Monkey Butler thing..

They have nothing to do with the conference in any sort of official capacity. Let's not do anything to encourage the belief that they do. Overall, I'm pretty irritated with the Monkey Butler thing. The MB thing was a creation of some of our more overzealous forum members and should probably be abandoned. They're attendees in blue shirts and nothing more.

[Melesse]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

Um..ya..the Monkey Butler thing..

They have nothing to do with the conference in any sort of official capacity. Let's not do anything to encourage the belief that they do. Overall, I'm pretty irritated with the Monkey Butler thing. The MB thing was a creation of some of our more overzealous forum members and should probably be abandoned. They're attendees in blue shirts and nothing more.

Hmm, I didn't realize. Well, could DC101 be held somewhere on site, but not on the con proper? So that they could police themselves, so to speak? Or at least somewhere that a minimum of goons need to be involved. Like...one, for two hours?

I agree that the goons have enough to do without adding another day of con.

Mel

[MisterVandal]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

Hrm, ok, I am actually capable of posting. Don't know who took my nickname here, but good luck with that.

My thoughts, I thought starting on Thursday was great, really, a lot of us showed up on Wed/Thurs just to hang out. My thoughts are that a lot of the complaints were the badge situation, which couldn't have really been foreseen. Siv and I got our badges early on Thursday but Eris had taken her bag to the room, a few hours and a half later she went to go get her badge to turn it in and got a paper badge, and we showed up at like 9 on thursday.

I am sure a lot of the "why did we start on thursday" complaints would have vanished if the people who showed up on Friday didn't suffer a longer line than usual.

[valkyrie]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

I would disagree for two reasons. Number one, DC101 is a great opportunity for folks new to DC to meet each other. It might be a lot less intimidating to start things off with a slow pitch, and create a situation where they're all on a level deck together. Second, DC has a flavor and culture all it's own. The lower you set that initial bar, the more likely people are to acclimate and thus contribute.

I do however think that DC101 should be a very low key event. I thought the Monkey Butler's were recruited so that the Goons didn't have to be there to take care of security, although with all the other talks going on Thursday I guess they didn't have a choice. The ideal set up would be, say, DC101 in the chill out room guarded and waited on by Monkey Butlers. Then the Monkey Butler's could help set the room to be the chill out room. Then the Goons don't have to get involved, the chill out people get help, and the Con proper isn't infiltrated.

Isn't it time we opened a thread dedicated to DC101 and suggestions? I would do it but have had Valkyrie jump on my ass before >< Once flamed, twice shy.

Mel

Melesse:

Your comments are sound and yes, the original intent of having the MB's was so that the security goons did not have to be involved. And yes, it was intended to be a low key event. I appreciate your comments because they are directly in-line with what we originally envisioned. Perhaps, if there is a DC101 next year, your ideas will be incorporated into how it goes off.

And I did not flame you. :-) I merely pointed out some inconsistencies. I apologize again for my harshness as I did at that time. Now, can we move on from that?

Regards,

valkyrie
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sapere aude