Starting on Thursday....

[Chris]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

DC101 was never intended to be a tactical teaching session. DC101 was merely to let noobs know what is available to do at DefCon. The original conception was more of an ad-hoc gathering than anything official.

All the other stuff that went off on Thursday I believe was the idea of other people. I value the Security Goons too much for them to have to work harder than they already do. So, I don't misunderstand you Eris, I completely agree with you. However, I still contend that something for the noobs is valuable. Exactly how that should be approached, I don't know.

Thanks for your comments. I truly appreciate them. I hope the organizers and planners hear you as well.

Regards,

valkyrie
___________________________________
sapere aude

Val---

I fully support a newbie track. Always have. I think for at least one day (if not all three) that it's a good idea to have not necessarily a DEF CON 101 but definitely a Hacking 101. I have thought for years that we have raced to get the latest and greatest 0day or technique into the press at the expense of new attendees who have interest and want to learn but are just getting started. Maybe I am wrong here, but I think this is a bigger percentage of the attendees than we probably know. I think we should have at least a full day of tracks dedicated specifically to them.

Not everyone that comes to DEF CON is as skilled as the speakers (shocking) and I think there are attendees that could benefit from talks on exactly what buffer overflows are, what SQL injection is, etc and how to do these things. It's not going to be for everyone and if more seasoned attendees went to these sessions they'd probably be bored, but for new people I think type of information would be very valuable. If we did this track say, all day Friday, and opened it with a 2 hour DC101 talk that was going on at the same time as Joe's talk about the badge I think it could work well.

[kallahar]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

Yeah, just make the 101 talks the first ones on friday, new attendees are far more likely to be gung ho to wake up early to go to a talk :)

101 could be a long series of talks too, say an entire track friday. I could think of a dozen "intro to ..." talks that would benefit a lot of people (even old hands).

[shrdlu]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

Yeah, just make the 101 talks the first ones on friday, new attendees are far more likely to be gung ho to wake up early to go to a talk :)

I miss having it start randomly, somewhere around 11 (no matter what the program said). 9AM? Who the hell is pleasant and ready for talks at 9AM? We know for sure that I'm not. It would have been perfect if Adam Savage had been scheduled for then. I'd bet anything that the folks who were gung ho to see him were also the set of people who were up and ready to go at that hour.

101 could be a long series of talks too, say an entire track friday. I could think of a dozen "intro to ..." talks that would benefit a lot of people (even old hands).

I really like this idea (disclosure: I was the third or fourth no vote in the poll up above), but I seem to recall that we'd had newbie tracks before, and that everyone wanted to go to all the other tracks instead. Still, perhaps marking the track as "introductory" rather than "newbie" so that there would be less onus on the attenders might be useful.

I really hated to see the stress and exhaustion on the faces of the security goons on Saturday and Sunday. Either get more goons and give every goon a full day off, or don't do Thursday sessions. Please.

[Schuyler]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

... get more goons and give every goon a full day off...

I feel like, regardless of the 4th day situation, this could be a cool idea. I have absolutely no idea how the goons would feel about it, but it seems like a day off, or maybe in the 3 day format, a half day? would give them the chance to interact with DC in a way they haven't been able to in their time gooning.

Or take naps, whichever :)

[The Dark Tangent]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

I feel like, regardless of the 4th day situation, this could be a cool idea. I have absolutely no idea how the goons would feel about it, but it seems like a day off, or maybe in the 3 day format, a half day? would give them the chance to interact with DC in a way they haven't been able to in their time gooning.

Or take naps, whichever :)

By the time con rolls around some of us who come over from BH (Grifter, the CTF organizers, etc) have already been going for 6 days. Maybe we have a holiday on Saturday?

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

it seems like a day off, or maybe in the 3 day format, a half day?

i know that next year it is my plan for Lockpick Village staff to have an entire day or so off, even core team, at DEFCON. for far too long all my crew has missed out on the conference itself. i hope that this past summer was rather good... we were targeting that sort of scheduling and it seemed that everyone got at least a half day off here and there, or at least proper food breaks, etc.

you were an ironman in the village, of course. and datagram on saturday while the rest of us were tied up with games on the contest floor... totally helpful beyond words.

if DEFCON keeps its official start as Thursday, then the villages are going to have to start asking for the ability to access our space on wednesday for load-in and setup. How feasible would that be?

[Schuyler]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

By the time con rolls around some of us who come over from BH (Grifter, the CTF organizers, etc) have already been going for 6 days. Maybe we have a holiday on Saturday?

Heh, I know that it's going to be brutal for some people, just wondering if it can be mitigated for anyone who's helping out. Again, I have no clue if it's feasible, or even worthwhile, just typing out loud.

[valkyrie]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

Val---

I fully support a newbie track. Always have. I think for at least one day (if not all three) that it's a good idea to have not necessarily a DEF CON 101 but definitely a Hacking 101. I have thought for years that we have raced to get the latest and greatest 0day or technique into the press at the expense of new attendees who have interest and want to learn but are just getting started. Maybe I am wrong here, but I think this is a bigger percentage of the attendees than we probably know. I think we should have at least a full day of tracks dedicated specifically to them.

Agreed. As I have contended through this thread, DC101 was to give people an overview of what was available at DefCon, nothing more. I so appreciate those who showed up to talk about their particular areas and I am sure the new people appreciated it also. A full day of introductory sessions on Friday would require another track room and perhaps some additional security goons. Is this truly feasible? Everyone on staff is pretty much hard pressed already. Many folks, including DT have made comments about it perhaps being quite a bit, with BH the week before. I know that doing two weeks in Vegas can be more than stressful. I do agree that something for new people is important, but at what total cost (no I am not talking primarily about money, I am talking about people's tempers, physical well-being and being stressed out). If there is sufficient interest, perhaps.

Not everyone that comes to DEF CON is as skilled as the speakers (shocking) and I think there are attendees that could benefit from talks on exactly what buffer overflows are, what SQL injection is, etc and how to do these things. It's not going to be for everyone and if more seasoned attendees went to these sessions they'd probably be bored, but for new people I think type of information would be very valuable. If we did this track say, all day Friday, and opened it with a 2 hour DC101 talk that was going on at the same time as Joe's talk about the badge I think it could work well.

Personally, I think this is an idea that could be explored. Kallahar mentioned jumping them off early. Shurdlu mentioned calling them introductory sessions as opposed to noob talks. I like it, however, as I don't have a 10K view of the whole con, I won't immediately agree those ideas are sound for the greater good; I really have no decision in this. I have a ground floor view. If it works for the attendees without major stressing out the organizers/presenters/security goons/other staff/contests, perhaps it should be looked into.

Thank you Roamer, Kallahar, and Shurdlu. Hope the other organizers are listening.

Regards,

valkyrie
_____________________________________________
sapere aude

[shrdlu]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

I hate to do this, but rather than see it become habit...

...Shurdlu mentioned calling them introductory sessions...

and again

Thank you Roamer, Kallahar, and Shurdlu. Hope the other organizers are listening.

Please don't misspell "shrdlu". I only know one other person who does this, and I believe in that case it's deliberate (and I've become oversensitized to it). It makes me crankier than I know it ought to, but there it is.

SHRDLU

{please}

[SecretIdentity]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

SHRDLU

Right. Anyone that has done frequency analysis on letters and letter groups in the English language is familiar with that name, and you can't have two 'U' in single letter frequency analysis, because that would be wrong.

Anyone that has searched ciphertext for a possible transposition cipher is often delighted to find ETAOIN SHRDLU in the resulting list ranked by frequency from highest to lowest. If one found SHURDLU in their letter frequency list, then one would start to think their investigation tools were broken.

That would be bad.

[Schuyler]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

Right. Anyone that has done frequency analysis on letters and letter groups in the English language is familiar with that name, and you can't have two 'U' in single letter frequency analysis, because that would be wrong.

Anyone that has searched ciphertext for a possible transposition cipher is often delighted to find ETAOIN SHRDLU in the resulting list ranked by frequency from highest to lowest. If one found SHURDLU in their letter frequency list, then one would start to think their investigation tools were broken.

That would be bad.

Huh! That's neat. Never thought about it in that context. I know of it because of Linotype machines. It was like their qwerty.

[valkyrie]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

I hate to do this, but rather than see it become habit...



and again



Please don't misspell "shrdlu". I only know one other person who does this, and I believe in that case it's deliberate (and I've become oversensitized to it). It makes me crankier than I know it ought to, but there it is.

SHRDLU

{please}

Sorry. I am a tard. I shall take up my spelling book and be diligent in the future not to offend you.

Regards,

valkyrie
___________________________________________
sapere aude

[shrdlu]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

Sorry. I am a tard. I shall take up my spelling book and be diligent in the future not to offend you.

Not offended. Lacking appropriate caffeine, and my delicate feelings were also hurt.

Heck, you're one of the nicer people on the forum (which actually gave me pause when I commented on it).

[shrdlu]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

Huh! That's neat. Never thought about it in that context. I know of it because of Linotype machines. It was like their qwerty.

A small divertissement:

1. It is the second row of a linotype keyboard; etaoin being the first alpha six keys, shrdlu being the second. Look up typesetting if this is an unfamiliar concept. These keys are set up in descending order of frequency of occurrence in the english language (i.e. e is most common, and then t, and then a, etc). This is where the actual sequence originates.
   
2. One of the best known uses is in the title of an old SF story, Etaoin Shrdlu, by Frederic Brown, from the fifties.
   
3. It's also been seen as part of the comic strip, Peanuts. Charlie Brown has said it when he's been frustrated.
   
4. It was the name of an AI program written in 1972. This program is also known as "Blocks World," and was written by Terry Winograd as part of his Master's Thesis. It was later published in a book called (if memory serves) "On Natural Language Understanding." SHRDLU is quite well known in the AI community, and is frequently referenced in other areas. Terry Winograd has a page about SHRDLU, himself, explaining how he chose the name.
   
5. Shrdlu appears in various forms as the copy editor in the Computer Underground Digest. I imagine that the reference here is to the old linotype, and not to the AI program.
   
6. Etaoin Shrdlu also appears to have been the pseudonym of a columnist for the Weekly Reader, a small paper directed at grade school children, and popular in the fifties and sixties.
   
7. Another science fiction reference is in the novel "Four Day Planet and Lone Star Planet," by H. Beam Piper. Etaoin shrdlu was a profanity substitute used in the novel, which was written about '63 or '64 when people still used substitutes.

[valkyrie]

Re: Starting on Thursday....

Not offended. Lacking appropriate caffeine, and my delicate feelings were also hurt.

/me sooths your delicate feelings and passes you a stellar cup of Columbian, brewed double strength

Heck, you're one of the nicer people on the forum (which actually gave me pause when I commented on it).

Thank you. I really am not a nice person. :-)

Regards,

valkyrie
________________________________________
sapere aude