Girls

[Floydr47]

Well, it's nice advice that's been coming in, but I still haven't even been able to talk to her since wednesday at lunch. I tried phoning her on thursday, but all I got was an answering machine... So I don't know if I should even try calling again. But I'm going to probably have to talk to her sooner or later. But I get too nervous sometimes, cause even through I was planning to ask her out on wednesday after school, I turned around the coner, saw her, but she didnt see me, and then something in my stomach just felt weird and pulled me back, and I just left and went home... and I haven't really even talked to her much at all. But, of course, people are going to tell me to "swallow it, and talk to her" but it's not as easy as just typing it. I get too nervous when she's around, and I feel like I can't talk at all. It's just too hard for someone like me.

Just leave a message on her answering machine to the effect of: " This is Mr. A, I was wondering if you would like to join me for a 'burger or something after school, call me back if you have time. My number is 555-5555" If she calls back you know she's interested, if she doesn't call back, move on. She may be the one you want, but you may not be the one she wants. Everybody in this world wants something, but not everyone gets what they want. There is a real fine line between persuing a relationship and becoming a stalker.

[mfreeck]

More importantly however, is this has nothing to do with dating a submissive vs dominant girl. Wording things this way in no way takes away from the other person's independence or makes you the dominator in a conversation or relationship. It still allows the woman to respond with a no if they don't want to, it just makes you look more like you believe in yourself.

Oh, I didn't misunderstand you at all, I just disagree with you in this regard. I would also ask if you've had this approach tried on you personally? I have and I don't find Cotman's approach to lack any confidence (the way he words it), but I do feel manipulated by your approach, which hurts your position in the long run. Sure, I can still say No, but it corners me into a "yes" or a "no" answer and does not leave things open so I can say "I'll sit with you if we go to that other bench over there." Technically, I could say that with your approach, except you are clearly wanting a binary answer. Because you are asking such small things, I would go along with you, but I would feel manipulated and later when you asked bigger questions in such a manner, I would start saying No. The whole point is to get a yes (at least in the long run), so I feel your approach would only work with the type of female who is cool with someone else making the decisions for her.

The most independent, dominant woman in the world will still want a strong confident man (assuming shes not into femdom stuff or something).

Just for the record submissive != weak and unconfident.

The purpose of wording things like that is to show that you are sure of yourself and that she should be too. The majority of women find confidence to be one of the most attractive traits a mate can have. Thus you say things with confidence. Get it now?

Again, "confidence" is not the same as being on the dominant side. I understand why you may be associating it with a (stereo)typical male social attribute, but it's just not so. Someone can be perfectly confident, but still give me various options. If you truly have confidence, you don't have to weave it into your speech, it's just there.

Even saying "What would you like to do?" can be a confident statement depending on how it's presented. It can show that he's confident enough to do anything you could choose and that he's being gracious. Personally, I prefer throwing 3 specific suggestions out there as one of them is likely to perk some interest or at least inspire a specific alternative activity. If you've got three *specific* things (go watch foo movie, go iceskating at lloyd center, go to the retro arcade and play starwars/galaga/TMNT) it shows you put thought into it, but are allowing her choice and she is likely to feel that options are open enough for her to say "yeah, iceskating sounds good, but clackamas town center is closer to my house..." or "I've already seen that movie and I don't really like iceskating... how about bowling? There's this really cool place with glowing pins and music from my genre of choice downtown."

If she feels too shy to propose an alternative, she will still be able to pick the one that most closely matches what she'd like (assuming she's already said yes she'd like to do something that day).

BTW, what's your source on "the majority of women find confidence to be one of the *most atttractive* traits?" (Emphasis mine). TV doesn't count.

[Mr.A]

Well, I thought I'd update on my plans for tommorow, since I'm going to be able to see her again, since I haven't since wednesday, as was forementioned.

I'm going to try talking to her, and explain that I didn't talk to her earlier because I thought that she'd be annoyed. "letting her have her space" would be the excuse

*cough*

Then, if she asks about the phonecall, I think I'll just say that it was "worth a try" and say I was planning on asking her on a date, and then ask her.

Sounds like a plan? Even though you all seem to just give advice before reading up, I'd still like some comments on my ideas of how to handle this.

[pr0zac0x2a]

Few responses, followed by explanation.

but I do feel manipulated by your approach, which hurts your position in the long run. Sure, I can still say No, but it corners me into a "yes" or a "no" answer and does not leave things open so I can say "I'll sit with you if we go to that other bench over there." Technically, I could say that with your approach, except you are clearly wanting a binary answer. Because you are asking such small things, I would go along with you, but I would feel manipulated and later when you asked bigger questions in such a manner, I would start saying No.

Why doesn't wording something in that way leave it open? One thing I tried to make a point of was that wording things this way does still allow an answer like you offered.

Me: "Hey theres an empty bench over there. Lets go sit."
You: "I'll sit with you if we go to that other bench over there."

See? Direct copy/paste and it sounds fine. Its not manipulative, its just being sure of myself is all.
My response to your answer would be: "Sure." and we'd go sit on the other bench. Where am I being manipulative or trying to get a binary answer?

The whole point is to get a yes (at least in the long run), so I feel your approach would only work with the type of female who is cool with someone else making the decisions for her.

Its not making decisions for the female. Its just presenting questions in a confident manner. I'm sure as a woman you would prefer a guy who believes in himself. In the beginning of a relationship, its traditionally the male's role to offer suggestions for activities. All I was recommending was to make these suggestions with confidence that they are good ideas. In no way is saying things in a confident manner preventing the other person from disagreeing with you or offering something different, its simply being confident.

Just for the record submissive != weak and unconfident.

Never said that, not sure why you'd bring it up.

Again, "confidence" is not the same as being on the dominant side. I understand why you may be associating it with a (stereo)typical male social attribute, but it's just not so. Someone can be perfectly confident, but still give me various options. If you truly have confidence, you don't have to weave it into your speech, it's just there.

You originally suggested wording things this way only working with a submissive person. My only point was be confident in the way you word things. I'll explain the consciously wording things that way at the end of my post.

*Lots of stuff on offering multiple choices*
...
Personally, I prefer throwing 3 specific suggestions out there as one of them is likely to perk some interest or at least inspire a specific alternative activity
...
*Lots of other stuff on offering multiple choices*
...
If she feels too shy to propose an alternative, she will still be able to pick the one that most closely matches what she'd like

I try to do that also, for exactly the same reason you said. The only reason I used the examples I did was because they were similar to the ones TheCotMan did.

BTW, what's your source on "the majority of women find confidence to be one of the *most atttractive* traits?" (Emphasis mine). TV doesn't count.

Personal experience, trial and error, and female friends.

Short explanation:
I'm not the most confident person in the world. However, I used to be a lot less confident than I am now. Reading what Mr.A has said, he seems to be very similar to the way I was in highschool as far as talking to attactive girls goes. I've found the best way to become more confident is literally "to fake it." Pretend to be more confident and act like you are, and after a while you will be. The reason I posted my first comments was partially because of this. I agree with you, a confident person can make anything they say sound confident without having to think about it. Not true for someone whos not that sure of themself. Making an effort to word things confidently will make you seem more confident, and after a while, feel more confident.

Thats really all there was to my posts. No elaborate manipulation or tricks. Just the pretty reasonable idea of being confident, and a suggestion on how to do that for someone who I thought could use the help.

-zac

PS: I think this is the longest post I've ever made on this forum.

[converge]

"Hey, there is an empty bench over there. You want to go sit?" (over break, lunch or time when most everyone stands around between classes.)
or
"I'm heading over to <place to get food> and you're invited. Want to come with me?"

Does this technique include things like "Hey there's a party in my pants and.." or "Me and a few friends are heading to the sex club tomorrow night" ?

you can estimate body language, facial expressions and changes to her voice to determine her interest.

.. and with any luck? The 'O' face .. you know..

By using such clues, you can better understand your risk for rejection in asking her out to a movie, or something else.

Just remember, no means no.. but a restraining order could be open to legal interpretation.

I know emotion can influence a person's perception

As well as anxiety and plain old communication .. for both parties involved. For example, that lucky person may hand you their phone number and prod you to call them some time ... this is just nervousness... ignore it.


I am really at a lack for giving advice in this arena. In spite of being happily married, I couldn't pick up a date or mate for the life of me. Just be yourself. If yourself is just an asshat, then that might attract different people than you are looking for .. or maybe not. The being yourself thing worked out for me; and by some odd combination of luck and fortuitous bravery I have managed to find someone that very much fits my counterpart. Someone that can understand me more as a person, and not just some awkward one liner and one nighter from a bar.

Part of the trick is being around others. Exposure, plain and simple .. because you'll never find the person in a server closet. I know.. I've looked. The search lasted a few days before I found my way out of the tangle of cat3 and catv. The half opened Mt Dew and fuzzy Cheetos were a godsend ... but I digress. If you spend your days working around men, but want to seek a female partner.. this might not work out so well. Likewise, if you seek a handsome stud but work as a teach in an all female college .. may not have much exposure to seek that strapping buck.

I think thats about all I can contribute...

[TheCotMan]

Does this technique include things like "Hey there's a party in my pants and.." or "Me and a few friends are heading to the sex club tomorrow night" ?

I guess that depends on the "type" of people you want to repel or attract.

Pickup lines in a similar realm include:
"Would you like to [pet my one eyed trouser snake|play hide the salami]?" (This reminds me of a joke. Ask me about ketchup and remind me about this post some other time at con. If you know it, then don't ask.)
"Baby, whenever you are around, I can count to 11." (Extra "digit" inference.)
"Let's call one of your legs, 'New Year's Eve' and the other one 'Thanksgiving' and 'meet/meat' between the holidays."
"Hey baby, you wanna come home with me so you'll actually be there when I'm having sex with you?"

Though, I've never seen these ever "work" when seriously presented-- unless "work" is defined as to make the other person laugh, or increase disinterest in the pickup "artist."

.. and with any luck? The 'O' face .. you know..

Is this where I say something so rude it is almost funny, like:
a) Who cares what's on their face?
b) It is hard to see their face, when they're [biting a pillow|bent|not facing me|*]
/me is running and ducking for cover.

Just remember, no means no.. but a restraining order could be open to legal interpretation.

heh-heh. nice.

For example, that lucky person may hand you their phone number and prod you to call them some time ... this is just nervousness... ignore it.

I don't have this problem. People don't give me their digits-- however, they sometimes show me one of their digits... the middle one.

I am really at a lack for giving advice in this arena.

[Witty comment placed here] ]:>

Part of the trick is being around others. Exposure,

I think that is illegal in public. (heh)

Seriously though, what converge wrote about experience with other people will educate you in reading people, and picking up on clues. The pressure of peers, anxiousness, inexperience, hormones and stress is dispersed with expereince and time. At some point, you accept yourself, "as-is." The trick then becomes searching for people who can also accept you for who you are, "as-is." (This as a suggestion is for relationships, not advise for one-night stands or going out to bang some random stranger.)

I'm going to try talking to her, and explain that I didn't talk to her earlier because I thought that she'd be annoyed. "letting her have her space" would be the excuse
...
Then, if she asks about the phonecall, I think I'll just say that it was "worth a try" and say I was planning on asking her on a date, and then ask her.

(I can't believe I am writing this. "Pot" , "kettle", "black":)
Too much information.

If she is your friend, then hang out like your normally do, and when you and she are alone (through natural circumstances) ask her for a date.

If you don't hang out with her as a friend, then find common interrests and see if you can arrange time with her and others so she can get to know you, and you can get to know her. Then, after some time, when things are going well and nobody else is around, ask for a date.

Just do it. Overanalysis can be harmful... trust me. :-)

[Mr.A]

Maybe it WAS a bad idea to make this thread, pretty much the EXACT same information keeps piling up every-so posts. Another problem today is putting everything to categories, types, and profiling. It's what happened to the once good hacker name.

It seems that with some people it's either they're submissive, or dominant. Well, people are complexed, and can give in on issues that DON'T matter. others like to be dicks, and have the tny things their way. Some people don't really care who's running their country, since they all look alike to me. Others seem like their opinion is the gold lining in every huge dispute.

What is basically said is, no one is one or the other. "Everything in equality" from the most practical people I know, Greeks :/

[SlackJaw]

Maybe it WAS a bad idea to make this thread, pretty much the EXACT same information keeps piling up every-so posts. Another problem today is putting everything to categories, types, and profiling. It's what happened to the once good hacker name. /

Fuck me if I'm wrong, but did we all just get scolded?

[Floydr47]

Maybe it WAS a bad idea to make this thread, pretty much the EXACT same information keeps piling up every-so posts. Another problem today is putting everything to categories, types, and profiling. It's what happened to the once good hacker name.

It seems that with some people it's either they're submissive, or dominant. Well, people are complexed, and can give in on issues that DON'T matter. others like to be dicks, and have the tny things their way. Some people don't really care who's running their country, since they all look alike to me. Others seem like their opinion is the gold lining in every huge dispute.

What is basically said is, no one is one or the other. "Everything in equality" from the most practical people I know, Greeks :/

I don't know what everyone else thinks, but personally, I thought this to be a very good thread. Not just the dating issue, that is a personal matter, but as an exercise in inter-personal skills in general (social engineering). I think that too often we tend to label people or lump them into a group without ever looking at them as individuals. I saw some of that in this thread. I believe that any thread that makes people stop and think or group together to help another person (whether it be in matters of the heart or developing a new project) is a worthwhile endeavor.

[astcell]

On a second thought, if its so much effort to talk to her maybe this isn't ment to be. All of the better realtionships I've been in just happened....
--BC,

Well from my past life where I worked in a welfare office, all the unwanted pregnancies that derailed a person's life plans "just happened." Maybe thinking about a relationship a little bit isn't a bad idea.

[ch0l0man]

Talk about overkill, geeks think too much. You don't need to place so much thought in talking to a girl/woman.

You already stated she talks to you, so when you are talking to her, just as if she would like to get something to drink, eat or hang out.

Personally I would walk away since she already used the word annoying to describe you. The flowers may have been to much, but then again maybe nowdays annoying means that you are cool.

If you are still willing to go for it, avoid the words; Love and Date. Jebus, who uses the phrase, "Would you like to go on a date?" Never once during my teen years with all the girls I dated did I ever utter that phrase. The most common thing I can remember was, "So what are you doing this weekend? Oh nothing, wanna hang out?"
Most of the girls I met and went out with were at parties, dances or crusing so approching them was rather easy.

Good luck!

[KeLviN]

you know what you should do? You should take a picture of her when she doesnt know it (as to not ruin the suprise) and then make a bunch of flyers with her picture and your picture and the txt "I LOVE YOU <her name here>. Will you marry me?!" and distribute hendreds of them all over school so she see's your devotion and that you arn't afraid of showing your feelings. she'll love it! then get the photo of her and have it put on a t-shirt with the same txt, and get 2 dozzen heart baloons and 4 dozzen flowers, and then when her first period ends, be waiting outside her classroom door and get down on one knee and ask her out. SHE WILL LOVE IT. she will think its the sweetest thing EVER. i promise she will fall in love right then and there. guaranteed. if i'm wrong, i'll buy you a beer at con.

[Mr.A]

Well, another day done, and even though it's somewhat off the topic, yet related in an indirect way, everyone at school seems to be dissapearing. The people that I usually hang around have been dying (that's just what I always say when someone asks "what happened to so-and-so?"). Which is to say, that there's not many people fuddling around, and making me feel nervous. Still alot of people, but less at least -_-". Even though today still, I haven't gotten around to talking to her. But, tommorow there's still chance : D.

[SlackJaw]

Well, another day done, and even though it's somewhat off the topic, yet related in an indirect way, everyone at school seems to be dissapearing. The people that I usually hang around have been dying (that's just what I always say when someone asks "what happened to so-and-so?"). Which is to say, that there's not many people fuddling around, and making me feel nervous. Still alot of people, but less at least -_-". Even though today still, I haven't gotten around to talking to her. But, tommorow there's still chance : D.

For god's sake psycho, shit or get off the pot. Can we say Melodramatic?

Now I'm wondering if this whole thing is a set-up just to have a dialogue with his perception of uber leet haxors.

Dude, if there is a girl, and if you indeed have a boner for her, then I believe this thread has covered humor, love, what's hip and what's not, the cool and not so cool, etc. You have a perspective from 15 - 50 year olds, and from Casanova to Frankenstein ( No puns about the movie "Mystery Men")

Cut the shit, gird up your sac in one hand, and hit this chick up. If you won't, then get a tattoo about your lost love and sing old nirvana songs. This is turning in an aol chat room.

[skroo]

you know what you should do? You should take a picture of her when she doesnt know it (as to not ruin the suprise) and then make a bunch of flyers with her picture and your picture and the txt "I LOVE YOU <her name here>. Will you marry me?!" and distribute hendreds of them all over school so she see's your devotion and that you arn't afraid of showing your feelings. she'll love it! then get the photo of her and have it put on a t-shirt with the same txt, and get 2 dozzen heart baloons and 4 dozzen flowers, and then when her first period ends, be waiting outside her classroom door and get down on one knee and ask her out. SHE WILL LOVE IT. she will think its the sweetest thing EVER. i promise she will fall in love right then and there. guaranteed. if i'm wrong, i'll buy you a beer at con.

You owe him a beer. End of story.