defcon shoot?

[Fatal Grace]

Re: defcon shoot?

Well the good thing about this range, is that when you set up a private event you also get a ten minute mandatory refresher, and that should be good enough for anyone who has shot before, if you haven’t shot before, this is not a training event, you are welcome to come along and watch, just don’t try to shoot because, if you look like you don’t know what you are doing you will be taken off the line and be asked to put you gun/s away.

You can bet your ass that if I even think anyone is about to do something stupid or if anyone else witnesses stupid behavior I’ll personally boot the dumbass, faster them Microsoft tried to make us forget about Bob.

Also I won’t be doing any shooting, so that we have at least one person who can constantly watch out for stupidity. I welcome any help that anyone would be willing to give, let’s make this a safe, and fun event.

Any RSO’s that would be willing to help, greatly appreciated you will be. expect free beer after event. Please toss me a PM.

Deviant Ollam and noid, thanks for all of the help/advice I’ll be sure to add your questions to Wednesdays list.

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: defcon shoot?

I will happily volunteer to act as a safety officer, at least part time. I'd like to get some shooting in but I'll help out on the rules and regs enforcement if there are limited people on that front.

Full disclosure: i am not certified in any way by any recognized body. i've acted as an RSO in a small-scale capacity amongs social groups and when teaching groups of novices to shoot, but i have no formal NRA training. (it's been on my list for a while.)

the primary extent of my oversight was religiously enforcing the four rules and coordinating when the range was hot or cold.

[haden]

Re: defcon shoot?

you know ill pitch in as so too but like deviant i would like to get in some range time. i do think we need to establish some ground rules though like no beers till after the shoot, hearing protection, and vision protection by all on the range. fatal we need to set up a common time and channel on irc to have some talk on organization

[Fatal Grace]

Re: defcon shoot?

Thanks for the help guys, I wouldn’t expect you to spend the entire day not shooting, hell if only a few people show I might even take some range time myself.

Not drinking before, and during the shoot. Is one of those, if you don’t know it go and jump off a bridge please. Type of things.*

Hearing, and Vision protection is also mandatory, and the people who don’t know this shouldn’t be participating in the event.

I can’t stress this point enough.
This is not a Training event, it would be great if we could invite everyone, but we can’t, a one day event is not the place to learn proper use, handling, and safety procedures. I couldn’t in good conscience allow someone who is likely to make beginner mistakes participate, and possibly harm someone… Hell even experienced shooters make mistakes. Feel free to come, and watch. Pay attention and you might even learn a few things.

Haden please send me a PM with the time “Preferably PST.”, date, and IRC link.

[Fatal Grace]

Re: defcon shoot?

I left a message yesterday, just got off the phone with them today.

Bad things

No armor piercing bullets.
No Flash Bangs.
Binary explosives maybe Insurance is looking into it.

Good things

Machine guns OK
Silencers OK
AOW’s OK
Destructive Devices OK

I get a quote in the morning.
Tell you more then.

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: defcon shoot?

Binary explosives maybe Insurance is looking into it. ... AOW’s OK, Destructive Devices OK

i find it hard to imagine a place where DDs and AOWs are on the menu but Tannerite isn't. If you can lob 40mm shells downrange, a little boom and puff of smoke should be fair game.

[haden]

Re: defcon shoot?

wonder if they consider thermite or solidox as destructive devises or as bianary explosives.
if not i've got about 10 -20 lbs of iron oxide laying around somewhere.

as to the drinking. you know we'll end up with at least one or two who are already gone or try to start while were at the range. Just making it official like that would prevent those little embarissing moments.

[noid]

Re: defcon shoot?

We've actually never had a problem with drunks on the line before. Having the shoot at the crack of dawn has prevented a lot of that. Plus when you get out there and its in the low 100s, cracking open a cold one is the least of your desires.

[haden]

Re: defcon shoot?

next thing is we need to find a date for the shoot

[lil_freak]

Re: defcon shoot?

wonder if they consider thermite or solidox as destructive devises or as bianary explosives.
if not i've got about 10 -20 lbs of iron oxide laying around somewhere.

Thermite and SolidOx are indeed considered "Binary Explosives".

I a .pdf file somewhere listing what is considered a "Binary Explosive", but I'll have to search for it if anyone wants to read/see it.

[haden]

Re: defcon shoot?

damn oh well. but i would love to have that list freak. im into explosives of all sorts so that list would be good to have if you can find it. thanks

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: defcon shoot?

next thing is we need to find a date for the shoot

How's wednesday morning? anything later than that and, i'm sad to say, most people are too into the swing of pre-defcon to get it together. There's a chance that thursday morning could work for some people, too, but it would have to absolutely wrap up by noon and lots of folks couldn't make an after-event out of it due to TBBQ pre-game (which for me and some others also includes Titanium Chef).

Unless, of course, we want to make TBBQ the unofficial after-party. That gives everyone time to break down and clean their hardware back in their rooms, etc. (or to stay there and do cleanup, if there are some public tables with some shade) Heh, as cool as it would be to strip down and be solventing and oiling Class-III gear in Sunset Park amid smoking meat, i think the cops would show up for sure on that one.

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: defcon shoot?

We've actually never had a problem with drunks on the line before.

noid, would you care to share any more info about any problems (small or large... my guess is most were small) that you did have at previous shoots? what sort of steps did you take or policies did you implement to handle them?

i've organized some group shoots in the past, but nothing more than ten people or so at a time. i'm sure that while the rules and operations we had in place were ok, they may need tweaking in a larger setting. here's the rundown of what we had...

1. at least one range officer on each end of the line - these folk were in charge of making sure that no parties crossed the line when it was hot, and they were primarily in charge of setting the flags for the line. a system we used was a long rope with many red ties affixed that could be hung from a pillar at each end. if the rope was suspended in the air, it was a cease-fire. if the rope was dropped to the ground, it was free-fire.

2. at least one range officer for every six to ten people on the line - the job of these folks was to enforce compliance with the cease-fires and oversee each participant, enforcing the other rules. (listed below)

3. strict adherence to the "four rules" - all uncased weapons would face downrange. weapons not in use would have their actions open and mags dropped. anyone seen pointing in an unsafe manner or loading a weapon away from the line would be taken to task. (we used to have a rule where persons with valid carry permits in whatever state we were in could have holstered weapons, including loaded ones, on their person even if they were off the line. is this a good idea/bad idea for the shoot?)

4. penalties - people doing anything unsafe but small (loading a weapon away from the line, poor discipline with where the muzzle was pointed, failure to clear and make safe during a cease-fire) would get one private warning, one public warning, and then for a third infraction be asked to step off the line. sometimes people would be invited to come back up and participate some more after a while (10 min or so) if they were truly apologetic and really seemed like they were trying to keep their act together. anyone with a bad attitude about rules and parties acting very improperly (not respecting a cease-fire, horseplay or pointing weapons intentionally, etc) could see themselves off the line without two warnings and could see that happen permanently. that never happened, incidentally.

5. cease-fire - anyone could ask for a cease-fire, and range officers were pretty good about calling one right away, particularly if the need was communicated with urgency. most people who just wanted to check targets would casually ask, "can i have a cease fire in a bit" and not get all frantic, waving an open palm horizontally to an RSO. cease-fires were announced with a loud whistle or a blast from an air horn on very large ranges. the rope would get hoisted and everyone (no matter what they were doing) would clear and make safe and step back from the line. the roving RSOs would walk their area of the line quickly to see that all weapons were not hot. people were permitted to do things like load mags (back away from the line) but not work with their weapons at all. when going hot, an announcement would be made, the end "line judges" (as we started calling them) would verify that no one was downrange and everyone was back behind the line, and they would drop the rope.

6. RSO gear - we typically just communicated by shouting on small setups and once we used simple FRS radios on a larger range. the two end RSOs had air horns (once it was just whistles on a small range) to announce cease-fires. Something else we started doing... all RSOs (line judges and rule enforcers) wore blaze-orange boonie hats. much like the goons' red shirts at DefCon, these became linked in people's minds with instant obedience and fair execution of the rules. it was also helpful when we had people rotating from shooting to working... whether or not you'd get approached with a request, etc. depended not on who you were but what hat you had on.

i may be missing some things... just working from memory. what are people's thoughts here?

/me looks in noid's direction in particular.

[haden]

Re: defcon shoot?

these sound more than fare for the shoot. just hafta get me one a them there boonie hats.
on a serious note though i think thursday morning before the tbbq would be best. start at a** crack of dawn and finish up at 10:30-11:00 to give about an hour for field striping and cleaning. then strait on to lunch at the tbbq then to the forum meet.(for me atleast but i think since im helping out there to ill just make an anouncement.) unless we do hold them together like we are thinking.

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: defcon shoot?

just hafta get me one a them there boonie hats.

We should really start to clarify who is the official person or persons who are in charge of this event and whom they would like to have as working as safety staff. Questions...

1. Haden / Fatal Grace... you both appear to be the key players attempting to resurrect this event. Do you know each other? (I ask because it looks like Haden was the initial starter but Fatal jumped right on board quickly.) Would you be running it together and both be the main contacts? Or is Haden more primary in that regard?

2. Would either of you be serving as Range Safety Officers in some capacity for the event?

3. How many other people besides me have expressed an interest in acting as safety officers?

i think thursday morning before the tbbq would be best. start at ass crack of dawn and finish up at 10:30-11:00 to give about an hour for field striping and cleaning. then strait on to lunch at the tbbq then to the forum meet.

i'm starting to agree that Thursday AM could be better, if for the main reason that i'll be totally done with my stuff at Black Hat and it gives other people a better shot at being in town.

Let's try to hammer something of a schedule and logistic notion together. Desert Lake opens at 7 AM and is about 30 to 40 minutes outside the city. (Heh, i wasn't able to find a single bit of location info on their web site, but a nice lady on the phone gave me the run-down there) Here are a couple maps detailing things better..

Now, i'll be ther first to admit that a 7 AM rise seems like it will be pretty tough for me. Unless i totally sack out right after SushiCon the night before. (Which may make the most sense, particularly if people still do Quarks Bar on Tuesdays as per usual, i'll possibly not want to drink on wednesday.)

So we could rally and depart from the hotel as early as 6:00 - 6:30 or as late as 8:00 or so. What are people's thoughts there? How much will depend on the range and potential crowds? Those who are organizing with Desert Lake may want to ask if getting there earlier in the day makes life better for us. Heat is also a factor that we will have to contend with as the day moves on, btw.

So... how much time did people think about spending there? Personally, I don't ever really shoot for more than two hours or so. If i break it up a lot (say, if we had 30 minute staff shifts and i was on half the time and shooting/socializing half the time) then i could almost see a three hour run time there, but that's just me. What are others' thoughts? (I'm just a guy talking here, btw... i don't want to be thought of at all as someone who is taking over this event with all his own ideas. I'm just looking to have a good time and lend a hand in any way that I can. Absolutely zero offense taken if someone tells me here or in a PM to back off.)

An interesting other note if you look at those maps above... if you travel just about 10 more miles on 93 past the turning for 95 south (at the point where 93 crosses the NV/AZ border) is the Hoover Dam. I've never been there, but would be totally be up for seeing that, too, if there were others who are interested. Now, that starts to get into not just scheduling issues but also "transport of weapons into a National Park" issues, i think. (I haven't done any reading there at all, don't know what Hoover Dam's status is. The green on the maps above is "Lake Meade National Recreation Area" technically)

So yeah... anything that gets us wrapped up on the firing line maybe by noon would get my vote. (That makes Hoover Dam seem less possible on the same morning, unless we break very early -- like 10:00 -- and some people head east to the water for an hour or two.) That way, we can do breakdown and cleaning (do they have comfortable, indoor space where you can do that there?) and get back to the hotel no later than one. I make my "Theme Ingredient" announcement for the Titanium Chef event at 15:00 at the hotel. Long as i'm back with plenty of time to spare there, i'll be fine.