defcon shoot?

[Fatal Grace]

Re: defcon shoot?

1. Was $3000 the final figure to secure the range for our whole group and let us do whatever we want there with our own weapons and ammo, no additional fees?

Yes

2. If we bring our own Class-III gear can we fire it on full auto with our own ammo?

Yes

3. If people opt to rent anything, independent of the $3000 "range fee", what is the rundown there? Specifically i believe we're talking about full autos here. Last i saw in the thread, it was a $2000 package, but it was very unclear what that meant, what ammo was included, etc.

Each of the ten people who put in the 2,000.00 get to shoot three firearms, M4, MP5, AK47. Twenty five rounds from each.

If you don’t want to shoot those firearms you can call and tell them what you want to shoot, hopefully they have it in stock.

Also any machine gun rental is led by two armorers with full certifications on the firearms we choose, at no extra price.

4. Can we shoot messy or loud targets? (Fruit, Computer parts, Tannerite)

Messy, and loud - Yes
Tannerite - No

I hope that helps clear up some confusion.

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: defcon shoot?

I hope that helps clear up some confusion.

wow... does it ever. thanks, man, for doing so much research there.

my only follow-up really comes down to the final details of the Class-III situation. was this a hard-limit of ten people and ten people only, each contributing $200? (like, is that some specific figure that they quoted you... $200)

or was it some other situation where any number of people may buy various packages and weapon rentals, and as long as the group's charges, whatever they stack up to be, amount to $2000 or more in the end? (say, 5 people putting in $200 each and then two more people each spending $500 on on some crazy long belts for M-60s?)

since i will not likely be renting any Class-III gear that doesn't apply to me, but depending on who else is going and how many people want to rock and roll with range weapons, that sort of thing should be decided sooner rather than later.

i guess i had one more follow-up... are they sure we can't shoot at any size tannertite target? even small ones?

[valanx]

Re: defcon shoot?

So if it is ten people is that list full now?

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: defcon shoot?

So if it is ten people is that list full now?

that's what i'm trying to figure out. i know that shoot itself will not be capped at ten participants (although depending on how interest may heat up as con approaches, haden, fatal grace, and i should probably discuss the potential for a hard limit simply as a reflection of how large a crowd we can safely manage with whatever staff members we have committed to the affair) but whether or not the Class-III range package has a limit i still don't know.

[Fatal Grace]

Re: defcon shoot?

We can have as many Class-III rentals as needed, but they are sold in packages of 2,000.00

The 2,000.00 limit is only for the Class-III rentals, extra clips, belts, and the like cannot be added to the Class-III price, and would be considered separate purchases.

As for the small tannertite charges, they told me that they would consider it, but not to get my hopes up.

[valanx]

Re: defcon shoot?

Well count me as interested. Not sure on the class III, depends on how many people you have or need. I believe dosman is interested as well, though probably not on the heavy gear.

[haden]

Re: defcon shoot?

got bad news guys
once again the forces of low income and shitty economy have foiled my attempts at making it to con. sorry guys maybe next year if i havent moved to ireland to avoid dealing with another clinton being in the whitehouse(even if shes only sitting second chair).

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: defcon shoot?

foiled my attempts at making it to con. sorry guys maybe next year

sorry to hear that, man. we'll miss you there. the shoot will still happen as planned... we'll send you photos to tempt you next time.

avoid dealing with another clinton being in the whitehouse(even if shes only sitting second chair).

well, then you have nothing to worry about... since the concept of hillary being tapped for the bottom half of the ticket is just about the dumbest notion ever and the fact that people still talk about it like it's a real possibility is just nonsensical.

so great... then it's very likely you will be here for DC17. hooray!

in related news... with haden stepping back, fatal are you still 100% running this event and cool with all the logistics? does the range know we have a group that wants to come and have they given us final word on pricing?

also related to this... how many of us still wish to act as RSOs during the shoot? i'm still game.

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: defcon shoot?

With haden dropping out, we're going to have to decide who is becoming the official contact here. Fatal, are you still maintaining your key role in the shoot situation? I have also opened i dialog with Desert Lake in order to get some additional questions answered that I have.

I have done some additional research and math that those interested in the Shoot may find of interest.

If we were to go with a participation cost of $75 per person (this is just for the range, Class-III is separate) that would be a pretty good deal when compared to other options in the area (like just going to the Gun Store or American Shooters)

if we agree that Range Safety Officers deserve a little break since they're working and not shooting half the time, maybe we say that they only have to kick in $50.

With those figures, to reach the goal of $3000 that Desert Lake wants, we would be looking at 36 attendees and 8 RSOs.

1. does that sound like a smart ratio of people? two RSOs on the ends of the line, one Chief RSO in the rear, and maybe two or three people walking among the shooters, leaving a couple RSOs time to actually participate. maybe we need to tweak things a bit... but you get the idea. sound reasonable?

2. with that pricing, how many people would be interested in participating? how many friends might you bring along? (I've PM'd some of the people who have already expressed interest... but in addition to responding to my PM, feel free to post here, too)

3. This number of people also leaves us with a little money above and beyond $3000... which we can use for some supplies like RSO hats (i'm going to provide everyone acting as an RSO boonie hat), air horns, maybe a bullhorn, etc.

For anyone interested in seeing Hoover Dam after the Shoot... i've called the Hoover Dam Police Department administrative offices this morning and they confirmed what i found on the web here and here...

Weapons transport must comply with state and federal standards, i.e. guns must be unloaded and in compliance with concealment laws. Also, no more than 1000 rounds of ammunition may be transported across the dam.

so we can go there after the shoot and have no trouble as long as all the hardware is unloaded and locked in vehicle trunks. even if you have a valid CCW for Nevada and/or Arizona, it's likely a good idea if you leave everything locked in vehicles and, as the officer with whom i spoke (Ray) stated, "As long as you're not locked and loaded for bear, you'll have no trouble at the checkpoints"

(there are checkpoints as you approach the structure and even before you get to parking areas)


So... comments, please.

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: defcon shoot?

HOLY FUCKING JEEBUS AT A SHOPPING MALL

Get a load of the new updates to this situation, they are many and varied... and they are all awesome.

Just got off the phone with Jared, the owner of Desert Lake. Real nice fellow. I shot him an email this morning containing links to some of the previous shoots and he is very, very pleased about the prospect of hosting us. As i pointed out in the email, and he acknowledged on the phone with me... you can clearly see loads of folks having fun with very powerful gear but in every shot which shows a weapon's receiver it is either clearly open, or someone's holding it with their finger properly indexed, etc etc etc. I explained that our crew is serious about being smart, safe, and good customers. He agrees and wants us to have the best deal possible and have a good time.

Soooo... without further ado, here's the new, revised situation...

1. the fee of "$3000" discussed earlier in this thread was in anticipation of only a group shoot (without any range rentals) and people bringing loads of their own Class-III gear. in that sort of situation, he would close down his public range entirely, hence the large usage fee.

2. the Class-III packages are pretty much what we'd been told before, but with a bit better deal in the mix... it's $200 per person, with a minimum of 10 people.

essentially, he simply wants a minimum of $2000 in the picture. if we have 11 or 12 people, that doesn't turn it into "two" Class-III packages at $2000 each, it just makes it into a $2400 price tag.

the Class-III package for each person is three rifles: an AK47, an M-4, and an MP5. you get 25 rounds to put through each of these. you can buy additional ammo from the range, ammo cost only... no additional weapon rental cost.

also, if we're doing a whole Class-III package they will bring their M-60 out and just have it there, no weapon fee at all, for anyone who wants to feed 25-round belts through it. (he may have told me the price there... i forget. it may be up in the thread somewhere, too)

3. here is the big one... if we are doing a Class-III package, then any money spent on that goes towards the range fee. so if we have (as hypothesized above) a dozen people that's $2400 going to Desert Lake already. We'd then only have to pony up an additional $600 to have our whole range space for the day. Once we have that, anyone else in our group can come and shoot, using any weapons they want (including their own Class-III items), until the cows come home!

4. what i'd like to work out amongst our own group is a two-part breakdown... we will come up with a fair Class-III rental fee (which will be less than the "real" $200) and also a simple "range usage fee" that all participants will pony up.

This way, the Class-III people don't wind up paying more than they would if they had just walked in off the street as a normal customer (they will likely wind up saving $20 or so if i can swing it) and everyone else on the range gets to come out and shoot for like $30.

People acting as RSOs will pay even less... maybe $10 total. Or, if they are going for a Class-III package they will only have to pay that fee (again, i'd like to see that fee be like $150 or $160) and i'll waive their standard "range fee" as well.

5. i've already put some numbers together on this. you can see them here. right now, let's assume...

1.we can get 35 people to participate in the shoot
2. a dozen of them will go for Class-III packages
3. those who go for Class-III will give me $150 (not $200)
4. everyone (including people in point #3) gives me $35
5. i can then hand Desert Lake $3000

as we near con, if the figures of who is interested start to vary, then i can revise those numbers further and the simple "range fee" which everyone kicks in will go down. no matter what... everyone will get to shoot all that they want to on the line for less than they would spend at a place like The Gun Store or American Shooters and people renting Class-III packages will get a better deal as part of the DEFCON Shoot than they would if they went out to Desert Lake at any other time.

6. if we see real interest (like 15 or more people going for Class-III stuff or, say, 40 people overall) i'll tweak the numbers as best i can... but there may be a point where we start to see some surplus in our own budget. will everyone here trust me to simply put it to good use and not blow it on hookers? i mean, i'll be acquiring the supplies for the firing line control and also be bringing huge jugs of water for everyone who participates.

additional uses for the any surplus will be:

* paying for the RSOs blaze-orange boonie hats (which i'm getting customized and letting the RSOs keep)

* picking up some prizes for people if i come up with some impromptu contests at the Shoot like "most fun/original weapon" or "most inventive target" or "best target destruction" etc

7. Desert Lake has (as was mentioned above) a beautiful club house and bar where we're welcome to hang out afterwards, cleaning our guns in air conditioned comfort while we sip cocktails. (all Jared asked was that we be sure to have heavy cloth or sheet with us since he'll let us spread out and do our cleaning right on the dining room tables of the banquet hall... they're nice wood tables so he doesn't want to see them messed up.)

Hehehehe... so now who thinks this is a fun idea and would like to participate??

NOTE - i should mention that this place is essentially the new Class-III heaven for this part of Nevada and Arizona. they are affiliated with Small Arms Revue and can get their hands on basically any goddamn weapon known to history if you want to shoot it.

Individual "special weapon rental" packages are about $350, but this can be split up among people any way they want. If three guys all kick in $120, they can get their hands on a PKM or a Ma Deuce or whatever, you name it. After the weapon is rented (they need a week or so advance notice on some of the more exotic items) then all you pay is ammo. (there is some ammo included in the basic $350 fee, i will check if/when people say they are interested in this sort of deal)

Naturally, a place like this is all kinds of mixed up with the ATF and other regulators. If you bring your own Class-III gear, be sure to have all your paperwork in order or it's your own ass. I will not use surplus funds to help you make bail or hire a lawyer if you forgot the forms saying it's legal for you to have a sawed-off minigun under your coat or something.

[SGT_Fury]

Re: defcon shoot?

Dev,

The shoot looks great. At present, I'm arriving via air on 8/6. I'm interested in participating in the shoot. I need to work out cost and possibly ship some of my weapons to the site. Got to find some FFL holders in the AO.

Other than that, will need to determine the availability of 5.56 and .40 caliber rounds. Arriving late on 8/6, so I won't have time to shop for ammo prior to the meeting at 0600hrs.

Has the range fee remained at $35 as shown on the web page or are there changes?

Thx,